PID Controller

[bshack618]

I'm currently building a new still and I just bought the electric dyi from still dragon and want to put a PID Controller in it. If I set it to 180 will it maintain 180 f as it had a thermocouple I will be adding to the still. Thanks!

[still_stirrin]

Unfortunately, that's not how you run a still. I think you should read the mandatory reading to learn more...like "why" you can't run a still by temperature. I don't want to replay this subject (that's thoroughly covered already).

But, a thermo controlled PiD would be great for mashing grains.
ss

p.s.- The short answer to your direct question is, "no", the thermo will NOT maintain the vapor at 180*F. It'll vary with the composition in the boiler...or it'll STOP producing altogether.

[TxBrewing]

I have been using PIDs to run my beer brewing operations for years, and for that, they work amazingly well. The best I can tell from other conversations and lots of reading the best use of a PID in hobby distilling would be in Manual mode to vary the input power to the heating element and letting the still tell you if you need more or less heat applied


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[bshack618]

That's my plan with it I might of typed it wrong but I don't plan putting it at 180 and walking away and leaving it. I just wanna be able to get it close to that temp and regulating it from there.

[bshack618]

I have been distilling for alittle time now but also used propane so im going electric just for an easier operation and still learning how to do the electric.On propane I also regulated it once it got to a close temp but just felt the copper from there. Plan on doing the same with electric I have a 3500 240v element in my tank and controller but wanna add a PID Controller so i can have a temp right there and regulate it once it gets close.

[TxBrewing]

Thing is in PID mode it will work hard to keep it at the set point you give it.

In manual mode you set the time the element is cycled on.

Yet you can't get both at the same time. If all you want is a temp probe then there are better solutions


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[ShineRunner]

So you're saying you want to set the PID to automatically warm it up and then switch to manual mode after that? I suppose that's possible, but I don't know how switching to manual mode works on those PIDs. Mine (used for brewing only) is PID mode only. Make sure you get one that allows manual mode. Not sure how manual mode works in those, but the cycle times may be too long and cause smearing.

I also think it's over complicated. There are a lot of simple options out there that are reliable and easy to build. I run a fairly simple PWM module that cycles frequently enough to not cause smearing.

But to each their own.

SR

[FuelMaker]

The only reason I could ever see justifying the expense/bother of a PID controller is if you tied the power input to a flow sensor on the product output. But thats so far down the path of diminishing returns even I wouldnt ever do it - and I tend to WAY overcomplicate things just because it's fun. IMO there are better places to spend money on.

If you're just going to use it on manual mode - use a solid state variable relay and a pot. Total cost for power input control is under 20 bucks.

[TxBrewing]

I already have everything for using a PID for now, but will move to a different dedicated controller for the still so I don't have to use my brewery controller.

In manual mode the PID fires the element for a % of the complete duty cycle. I may be wrong but I believe the duty cycle on mine is 1 second. So running at 50% in manual mode my element is on for .5 then off for .5.

There is a lot of negative chatter about PID here, but I think it is because people think they can get away with short cutting the process.


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[Snackson]

I already have everything for using a PID for now, but will move to a different dedicated controller for the still so I don't have to use my brewery controller.

In manual mode the PID fires the element for a % of the complete duty cycle. I may be wrong but I believe the duty cycle on mine is 1 second. So running at 50% in manual mode my element is on for .5 then off for .5.

There is a lot of negative chatter about PID here, but I think it is because people think they can get away with short cutting the process.


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Stare at your BK when using manual. You will see it pulsing and not a continuous boil. I tried running in manual when I first started out and could see in via sight glasses and saw the pulsing. Using a pot and SSVR are much easier to tune it in just right.

[TxBrewing]

Not arguing that with you at all


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[FreeMountainHermit]

This may look like a simple control knob but looks can be deceiving. It's really the cat's whiskers when it comes to running a distillation column.Keep it at your fingertips and enjoy the ride !

[TxBrewing]

I will get there


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[rad14701]

As a safety issue, you don't fire up a still and just walk away... Not even with automation... Perhaps you need to rethink your desire to participate in this hobby if you don't want to practice it safely... We've had this discussion far too many times...

[still_stirrin]

I already have everything for using a PID for now...

But, just because you have a screwdriver, doesn't mean it's the right tool to drive a nail.

A PiD is useful....just not so much so for distilling.
ss

[bshack618]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/282305450144?_t ... EBIDX%3AIT" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
I ended up buying this one and plan on using it manual mode Should i put it in the pot or at the top of my copper. Just gonna say it again I do not plan on setting it and walking away. Im using it so I can get close to the temp and have a temperture gauge also and then adjust the temp. I dont plan on cooking off the temp I plan on feeling the copper and then adjusting.I have been stilling for about a year now but have always used propane so please dont bash as i am learning the electric way. Thanks!!

[NZChris]

You just bought a square peg for a round hole, so there is no correct place to put the thermocouple.

Use it on your fermenter.

[bshack618]

I was going to put the thermocouple at the top of the column

[NZChris]

Yours is a pot still, not a column. They work differently. Your PID is only useful as a temperature readout in either position.

At the top it can tell you when it's nearly ready to come over, at the bottom it can tell you the temperature of the charge. You have to do the controlling.

[TxBrewing]

So now you will start to feel part two of the "PIDs are the devil's tools". Lots of comments will be made about not using temp to run your still. It seems that the fact that you have to have a temp probe hooked to the PID to make it work gets overlooked.

But, remember, it just has to be hooked up, it does not have to be part of the still itself. It could just be telling you how warm it is in your still spot


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[NZChris]

So now you will start to feel part two of the "PIDs are the devil's tools". Lots of comments will be made about not using temp to run your still. It seems that the fact that you have to have a temp probe hooked to the PID to make it work gets overlooked.

I make decisions based on my records of boiler temperatures during previous runs all the time, but there is no way to use those temperature records to do anything useful with a PID controller.

[TxBrewing]

I understand. And have since it was explained to me a few PID threads ago.

The PID argument so far as I have experienced it has to main legs

1. Everyone that wants to use a PID must want to have a still they can walk away from

2 the fact that a PID has to have a temp input to function must mean that PID users are going to run the still by temp.

Neither of which are true in my case, but it has proven hard to make some understand that.


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[NZChris]

I want to hear from someone who reckons they can use a PID, exactly how they are going to use it.

I use PIDs for cheese making and sous vide because they need stable temperatures. Why anyone would want a stable temperature in a pot still I'm buggered if I know.

[TxBrewing]

In manual mode, not automated PID mode you can set the % of time the element fires during the duty cycle. The thought is yo run it at 100% until just before the still produces. Then adjust the duty cycle so it puts out product at the rate the user wants. To fast. Lower the duty cycle. To slow raise it. Same as with fire. Only drawback is that control is not linear.

Edit to add: not all PIDs have manual mode, but mine do




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[NZChris]

In manual mode, not automated PID mode you can set the % of time the element fires during the duty cycle. The thought is yo run it at 100% until just before the still produces. Then adjust the duty cycle so it puts out product at the rate the user wants. To fast. Lower the duty cycle. To slow raise it. Same as with fire. Only drawback is that control is not linear.

Seeing as you're not using the automated PID control functions, I fail to understand why a PID controller is an advantage over FMH's suggestion, which is what many of us use.

[TxBrewing]

Never said it was an advantage, what I said was, in other threads, it is what I have on hand already, and only a temp solution.

So, this will be the last post I make about PIDs as it seems that no matter what I will always be in the wrong.


TXB

[rad14701]

Never said it was an advantage, what I said was, in other threads, it is what I have on hand already, and only a temp solution.

So, this will be the last post I make about PIDs as it seems that no matter what I will always be in the wrong.

From a distilling standpoint, yes, you will probably always be wrong... As you stated about PID's not being linear in manual mode, they simply aren't the right tool for the job compared to a simple and inexpensive power controller...

I just bought a 4000W controller for $8.99 including shipping to see how different it is than the ones I build... They use virtually the same basic circuit layout... Have no need or desire for voltage or wattage readouts... Turn the knob up for more power and down for less... Just that simple, and as repeatable as needed by setting the know in the same locations for subsequent runs...

[bshack618]

Is there away I can wire up the PID for warmup and then have switch to the knob??

[NZChris]

It probably has an alarm output you could use to wake you up or latch/unlatch a relay, but only if the element was not being controlled by the PID.

[Carolinadistillin]

I'm not trying to incur the wrath of more experienced people here and I won't debate because I'm new to the site so I think it would be rude. Having said that, here is a picture of my column still control panel that uses 3 PID controllers.