"Untreated" Lumber may still have chemicals added

[BW Redneck]

I was recently browsing through a website dedicated to smarter wood burning, when I came across this little gem. http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/homillends.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

According to this, even "untreated" lumber may still have a bunch of chemicals added to it to aid in processing. Machine lubricants, salt water, fungicides, and polyethylene glycol could still be found in kiln-dried dimensional lumber.

Note that not all lumber processors use these chemicals, but this reinforces the notion that you should always know what happened to your aging wood from log to liquor every step of the way.


(And yes, I know I sound like this guy, so don't even bother.)

[theholymackerel]

Thankyou for the link.

[Barney Fife]

Surface contaminants can always be present on any wood, but unless it's pressure treated lumber, nothing will have penetrated more than 1/8" or so, unless it was sitting in the water/chemical for decades. Only exception is on the ends, where end grain can pull anything in roughly an inch. therefore, ALWAYS clean your wood(s) by planing or cutting off 1/8" or more, and chopping off the ends. This goes for old barrel wood, also.

Once we understand it, we see that wood isn't as mysterious and dangerous as some would want us to think.

[Tater]

Safest way to me it seems if ya aint sure don't use it. Anything else would be guess work unless there is a way to test it first.Other wise why take a foolish chance.

[Barney Fife]

Tater, read what I just wrote before your post. Once you trim off the outer eight inch, it doesn't matter, as you're into clean, virgin wood.

Enough with the wood paranoia already!

[Tater]

Tater, read what I just wrote before your post. Once you trim off the outer eight inch, it doesn't matter, as you're into clean, virgin wood.

Enough with the wood paranoia already!

And what if it penetrated 1/4 of a inch Tell ya what you do as you please but do not suggest anymore unsafe practices on this forum PLEASE.

[Barney Fife]

It simply cannot penetrate 1/4". That's what I'm trying to tell you! I'm not suggesting something dangerous; I'm trying to provide solid information instead of guesswork.

<tosses-in towel>

Simply incredible...

[theholymackerel]

Man, I'm really glad I only said, "Thankyou for the link."

[rad14701]

And I don't suppose they pressure treat lumber with creosote or other chemicals with 50,000 pounds pressure so it goes all the way through it either... Slap some formaldehyde on some wood and see how far in it leaches... We ain't talking paint here, which is merely a surface sealant... Bad advice can kill people...

[Barney Fife]

Slap some formaldehyde on some wood and see how far in it leaches...

This is getting crazy. I know of what I speak, but go ahead and slap some on any wood you have handy, soft or hard. Add a bit of aniline dye to it so you can see exactly how far it will penetrate. Give it a few days, then cut open your piece. Then come back and tell me I am wrong. Please. better still, mix some aniline dye with straight alcohol, so we have the thinnest possible vehicle to transport the dye into your wood pieces. Again, give 'em a few days, cut 'em open, and tell me if I'm wrong.

Also, go ahead and cut pressure treated 4x4(the green ones), and look at how deep the preservatives penetrated. These are done in HUGE autoclaves for anything between 12 and 24 hours, under immense pressure, yet even the super-thin preservatives can't penetrate deeply. That's why we need end cut preservatives when building decks and whatnot from these. And this is softwood, which is way more easily penetrated than hardwoods we would use for aging.

Sacrebleu...<Lol>

[Tater]

Man, I'm really glad I only said, "Thankyou for the link."

Yep Holy I know what ya mean.To my way of seeing when in the least bit of doubt ,don't take a chance.Ive seen soft spots in lots different woods that would wick anything that's wet the depth of them.or defects that could do same.Wouldn't think everyone's an expert as barney is.So I will still have to maintain the thought better safe then sorry.

[rad14701]

Yeah, I'll just say "Thanks for the link." cause I don't care if people poison themselves... I really don't...

[BW Redneck]

I didn't really intend to start any controversy here. All I wanted to state was that "untreated" does not mean that it can be toasted as is and thrown into spirits.

I'm a control freak when it comes to this hobby; almost everything that goes into my spirits I have made myself. I grow my own grain, malt it, and mash it all myself. Hell, if I could blow my own glass and smelt my own copper, I would. Since I own ground with oak trees an it, I cut and toast my own aging sticks as well. Even if I didn't know this little piece of information, I still would have continued to use my own timber for my projects because of my obsessive tendency to oversee every part of my hobby.

Now, I know that not everybody has the resources available to be as obsessive as I do, which is why I give this little piece of advice: if you can't process your own aging wood and you're disturbed by what may have been used on dimensional lumber, there is still one cheap supply of safe wood left: cooperage offcuts. Their lumber is guaranteed to be food safe because they need it to be, or else they wouldn't be in business.

[Dnderhead]

I care, I dont want this hobby to git any worse name than it has ! bad enough the misinformation/propaganda that's out there.

[The Chemist]

I'm usually on the side of "safety first--when in doubt, throw it out"...but I've got to agree with Barney. Oak is used for cooperage because of it's relative impermeability... Shave it good, it should be alright. Organics that would penetrate would also ruin the wood, and things like formaldehyde are quite reactive and wouldn't make it very deep. Things like lubricant goop would hardly penetrate at all.

But, as I said...when in doubt, throw it out...

[Tater]

Always have to go with the better safe then sorry idea when dealing with fokes who might not have any experience with wood.If there was someway to test wood for chemicals after shaving/cutting it I could go for that idea. However with out a test I cant see going with that idea for safety sake.And Barney said with any wood not just oak barrels.

[tracker0945]

So, if I may ask a question of Tater, BW and Rad without being flamed.
If you have so much distrust of timber, where or how do you aquire your smoking, oaking timbers that are considered more safe to use than the ordinary 'off the shelf' timber or old barrels?
And also if you say there are no tests that can be done, how can we be sure that they are as safe as claimed?


Cheers.

[Tater]

So, if I may ask a question of Tater, BW and Rad without being flamed.
If you have so much distrust of timber, where or how do you aquire your smoking, oaking timbers that are considered more safe to use than the ordinary 'off the shelf' timber or old barrels?
And also if you say there are no tests that can be done, how can we be sure that they are as safe as claimed?


Cheers.

First I only said that I couldn't/wouldn't go along with the 1/8 trim as safe on any wood for reasons already stated.Maybe should of just went with don't use anything ya think might of been treated.I live in the woods so white oak and hickory are on my property so guess where I get mine. I have no problem with anyone using what ever they feel comfortable with. But as far as this forum goes I feel its wrong to post anything that could cause harm.Weather its from use of plastics or recommending to use wood that's been treated or suspected of being treated.Why take the chance?If we condone this and someone gets poisoned and their reason was H D recommended it.Oh well that kill the hell of what we are trying to do here . Personally if I had no other way to get white oak Id go with a old barrel.I would sand or cut it until I was satisfied that it was clean.How ever I wouldn't recommend anyone else to try it.The saying that it must be ok I aint dead yet doesn't cut it with me.Back when it was brought up about using old clay jugs bought as antiques to store likker in and someone pointed out they wouldn't use them cause ya never knew what some old timer might have stored in it.Made seance to me how about you?.Any time anyone posts about using something that's toxic into something that's safe needs to also include a way to prove its safe as they claim.Or don't bother posting it.

[rad14701]

So, if I may ask a question of Tater, BW and Rad without being flamed.
If you have so much distrust of timber, where or how do you aquire your smoking, oaking timbers that are considered more safe to use than the ordinary 'off the shelf' timber or old barrels?
And also if you say there are no tests that can be done, how can we be sure that they are as safe as claimed?

I happen to live in an area where there are plenty of lumber mills... I can get scraps from a ball bat blank mill where they make the blanks for Louisville Slugger bats... I can also get an endless supply of scraps from the many Amish communities that surround me in every direction... I can also find scraps left behind that logging crews don't consider profitable... All three sources have zero contaminants... I'd never purchase lumber from a big box store like Lowe's or Home Depot just to burn it..

[duds2u]

What sort of timber do they make the Louisville Slugger bats out of? I've got one in my office that my security guards took of an angry drunk one night?

[rad14701]

What sort of timber do they make the Louisville Slugger bats out of? I've got one in my office that my security guards took of an angry drunk one night?

I'm pretty sure the pro's use ash, but I know they also process oak blanks - perhaps not for bats though... Gotta keep the mill running by taking whatever contracts they can...

[Husker]

bats are made with hickory

[rad14701]

bats are made with hickory

Ash and Maple, primarily...

http://www.sluggermuseum.org/faqs.aspx?id=44427641" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I live on the NY/PA line - where the Ash and Maple come from...

[tracker0945]

Quote.
All three sources have zero contaminants..

Quote.
I live in the woods so white oak and hickory are on my property

Quote.

Gotta keep the mill running by taking whatever contracts they can...


So obviously no 200 year old trappers came your way and dumped or used any strychnine or cyanide during their travels or no forestory workers ever came in touch with DDT etc. etc. etc..or used any other banned substances in your area at any time. You lucky people you.

Calm down now blokes.

Nothing wromg with being careful but.

How do you know with absolute certainty that your wood is exactly, without doubt, genuinely, guaranteed, feed your children with, no possible danger of any description to anyone, safe. You can't, no-one can

Just saying - nothing is certain and it just seemed to me to be a bit of a bit of an initial over re-action on your behalf to a well meaning statement from someone who possibly has some knowledge on the subject. (who knows different)

Your later responses to my question were much more tempered in language and much more explanatory of how you felt than the initial response to Barney.

I understand and support the need to be careful but I can not comprehend the acceptance of incorporating fertilizer (bird shit) and other like ingredients in your wash but roundly bashing some one who offers some advice to something that you personally don't agree with.

I now expect to be contacted by the mods but I have had my say.


Cheers.

[Tater]

Q---So obviously no 200 year old trappers came your way and dumped or used any strychnine or cyanide during their travels or no forestory workers ever came in touch with DDT etc. etc. etc..or used any other banned substances in your area at any time. You lucky people you.
A---Why cant I? These woods been on my family property for last 150 years .My Grand pa timbered them when he was young .And my family been living here watching them grow back ever since.So Im sure of my wood.So just call me lucky I guess But thanks for asking.And as far as adding bird shit to a wash you might I don't.Wouldn't piss in mine either. But as far as Ive ever heard it isn't poison.And that's my worry about trying to use something ya know is treated, It is dangerous to post to do something like that . If ya noticed first it was ok to use on any wood just cut off 1/8 inch.It couldn't not work. Then when I brought up what about soft spots or bad places in the wood it was then also watch for those.I think Barney probably knows a lot about wood. Not dumb about it myself .However most out there don't know So for the masses I still go better safe then sorry. .And as how I reply to someone strongly depends as to how they have replied to me or others.

[Fourway]

How do you know with absolute certainty that your wood is exactly, without doubt, genuinely, guaranteed, feed your children with, no possible danger of any description to anyone, safe. You can't, no-one can

Just saying - nothing is certain and it just seemed to me to be a bit of a bit of an initial over re-action on your behalf to a well meaning statement from someone who possibly has some knowledge on the subject. (who knows different

This is basically the same old same old argument.
People resort to it in the now strictly forbidden plastics debate and in most other matters of safety... arguing the "what me worry" side.

Basically the format is: "Isn't it silly to worry so much about safety in this one area where a possible safety issue can be discerned when there are so many areas where hazards may go unseen?"
Or alternately: "why fuss so much about toxic contaminates when alcohol is toxic anyway? if you are afraid of the risks dont drink at all."

If we remove either argument from the context of rectifying libations for human consumption it's pretty easy to see the flaws in logic:
The first: "why build cars with airbags and seat belts? The world is a dangerous place, you could be struck by lightning, you could slip in the bathtub, I dont see you putting seat belts in your shower or airbags on the sky... why put them in your car? isn't that sort of inconsistant?"
The second: "Why bother to fasten your seat belt? Driving is inherently dangerous. If you can't stand the idea of dying in a fiery wreck don't drive."

As an argument it falls short, the logical flaw here is commonly called the non sequitur fallacy.
The error in reasoning is committed when we jump from what is being argued (whether a specific practice is safe) to an unrelated topic (whether anything is really safe) and attempt to make it appear as if the two things are related. It is harder to spot in a conversation where the argument is presented entirely within the overarching subject since the two unrelated topics share common subject matter, but the logical disconnect is there.

[vajravarahi]

I have to say that for most people, they should probably stay with commercial wood chips specifically sold for use of oaking spirits (or wine). Or new or used barrels from known, reputable sources. That will not guarantee 100% that there is no risk, because that's impossible.

tater is simply saying that there's a lot of new people here, and they may not be well versed in the ways of wood, and when dealing with wood of unknown provenance and origin, it may well be best to err on the side of caution. I think this is especially true for used wood that might have been used for something other that storing spirits or wine.

I'm fairly confident that barrel companies don't go down to the local Home Depot to get the lumber they use. I think most, if not all, have their own stands of trees from which they select the ones to use.

[tracker0945]

I agree with all the stated points of being cautious and as Vaj has said -

Q, tater is simply saying that there's a lot of new people here, and they may not be well versed in the ways of wood, and when dealing with wood of unknown provenance and origin, it may well be best to err on the side of caution. I think this is especially true for used wood that might have been used for something other that storing spirits or wine.

If that was how the initial statement was replied to by all instead of jumping down on him from a great height with both feet forward, there would have been no reason for any further discussion.
I just hate seeing people being stomped on when there are more appropriate ways such as the example above of dealing with these matters.

I will now fade into the darkness.

Cheers.

[rad14701]

Yeah, we could get into the debate over whether contaminants got into the aquifer or the tree grew near a septic system leach bed or some contractor dumped toxic waste nearby or they were harvested in an acid rain region, but I guess I wouldn't be that paranoid... Much of the contaminants would be distilled out during the charring process... Remember distillation of wood...??? Of course this wouldn't eliminate heavy metals... How many trees would survive in a toxic environment anyway...???

Yadda, Yadda, Yadda... We could beat this to death, but is it worth it...??? Do the big guys take these issues into consideration and mull over them as much as we do...??? Doubtful... So, for the sake of quelling the ongoing debate I'd like to interject that we, as home distillers, probably already take more precautions than most distilleries and bars... And I'm sure we'll continue to try to remain safe...

[new_moonshiner]

I have to agree with Dnder on the fact that he cares if someone poisons there self or not .. I really hate reading or hearing stories of people almost dying or blowing shit up because they didnt know any better , I dont like seeing this Hobby/ Art getting any more black eyes that it already has .. The beginner or advanced distiller may not know as much as some about using wood .. Barney seems to know more about wood than say the average person ..but as Tater has said everyone may not have that knowledge .. therefore they could get into trouble really fast .As Tater said if in Doubt Throw it out.. its just not worth it .