Inverting Sugar ?

Post by **Hawke** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:31 pm

Ok, been reading on the main site and come up with 8 pounds to the quart (32lb/gal) and right below that is another claiming 2lb/pint (16lb/gal).
For those that bother with it, which method is correct? The searches have all come up with a bunch of mentions of converting, but no solid answer.

Post by **rad14701** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:44 pm

I don't make large washes but keep mine at more like 4-5lb/gal so I'm not making candy... I doubt that too much water would be nearly as problematic as too little...

Did some Googling and found this... (27lbs/gal)

Making Inverted Sugar Syrup
by Steven Parfitt

* Combine 5 lbs sugar in a pot with 3 cups of water.
* Set to medium heat and stir continuously, but slowly to keep the sugar off the sides of the pot.
* When the sugar is almost completely dissolved add 10 ml of a low-flavord acid, like Lactic or Phosphoric.
* Continue heating and stirring till it starts to boil. You now have mostly inverted sugar.
* Keep heating it over medium heat until it starts to turn straw yellow. Very pale. Nice light sugar.
* If you want darker sugar, keep cooking it but watch out as it can darken very quickly if you aren't paying attention.
* Before you are satisfied with the color, turn off the heat and carefully pour the syrup into 3 clean/sanitized mason jars and screw on the lids. The syrup will continue to darken as it cools.
* When the syrup has cooled for 15 minutes, I turn the ball jars over and let the hot liquid cover the lids on the inside as an additional precaution.
* Once they are almost cool, turn them back over.
* The syrup is easy to measure out and keeps nearly forever.

Post by **Dnderhead** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:00 pm

Hawke I thank your a little mixed up
first recipe calls for 8 lb sugar +2 pt water+ 1/2 tea spoon citric acid boil 30 min then add 2 more pints water -----1 1/2 pt =1 lb
next recipe---2lb sugar +1 pt water +1 tea spoon citric acid.
Iv tried this did not see much difference

I don't thank it inverts anything just splits the two

Post by **blanikdog** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:18 pm

I've always just tossed the sugar into a pot with some citric acid and boiled it till it was a straw colour. Probably haven't inverted it at all.

blanik

Post by **rad14701** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:34 pm

I found yet another recipe here...

Dissolve 8 lbs of Table Sugar in 2 pints of water with ½ tsp citric acid. Bring it to a boil, stirring for half an hour. Add water to make up to 1 gallon batch. With this recipe, there is approx. 1 lb of sugar in each pint. Use 1-1/4 pints for each lb of Table Sugar called for in a recipe.

Hmmm... Perhaps some practical experimentation is in order... Might have to drag out a couple fermenters and see what works best...

Post by **Dnderhead** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:10 pm

I did a little surch------ sucrose is glucose bonded to floutose by using enzyns (intvertase) or by acid and heat (citric/ascorbic/cream of tarter)
it can be split there by pervented from crystallization. same sugar just a diferent form. all so heat alone can be used but takes a long time.
"All constituent sugars (sucrose, glucose and fructose) support fermentation, so invert sugar solutions may be fermented as readily as sucrose solutions."

Post by **Hawke** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:17 am

Thanks for the comments. Never have bothered with it but have a pound of citric and 100 pounds of sugar that followed me home.

Post by **rad14701** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:02 am

I did some extensive searching last night and more or less compiled my findings based on what I've found... As far as ratio goes, most recipes are based on volumetric measurements and what I found was 1:1, 2:1, and 4:1 ratios of sugar:water... Also, a vigorous simmer rather than an all out boil for 20-30 minutes... Citric Acid, lemon juice, or Cream of Tartar appears to be recommended in the 1 teaspoon maximum per gallon range...

I have three 4 liter jugs I can use to test the three different methods once I get to the store for ingredients... I need more wash to finish testing my new small scale still anyway... Not sure how much difference there will be in small ferments but we shall see...

Post by **Dnderhead** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:57 am

small ferments ok, but to me i cant see where it does any good, sort of do you like corn on your potatoes ? or on the side? their still the same
it does not brake the sugar down just separates it. maybe we will fiend out.

Post by **Tater** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:42 am

To my tastes inverted sugar is harder to taste in fruit washes.

Freedave · Post by **Freedave** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:39 pm

I read a thread recently where someone mentioned the effect that inverted sugar had on the flavor of a neutral spirit. Then i see it mentioned here too. This caught my eye cause I've been trying to identify what is causing the remaining flavor in my wposw. You may remember me asking you guys this question a few months ago.

On the parent site it's mentioned once or twice, but not really stressed as having effect on flavor. I have been thinking up till now it had more to do with the ease/speed of overall fermentation. And i have not been inverting my sugar wash. But now it seems (from reading) to have noticeable effect on flavor.

Any way what I'm wondering is if any one has made similar batches of neutral when the only difference was that you inverted the sugar, or not. And if so did you notice a difference in flavor. I'd like to figure out what is responsible for the remaining flavor in my wposw. So far the key factors seem to be, 1) make sure ferment is complete. 2) make sure it has settled/cleared. 3) run my bokakob with a higher reflux ratio. 4) equalize for longer time. 5) extend column length. 6) do stripping runs. Now i want to see if "invert sugar" should be in the list.

thanks

Post by **Tater** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:18 pm

I have made fruit and sugar mix washes where Ive made side by side one inverted the other not.Same amount of fruit and sugar only difference was one was inverted other wasn't.I could taste sugar taste lot stronger in one that wasn't inverted.Was harder to taste in one that was.I invert sugar 20 lbs at a time in a turkey cooker with lime juice till turns yellow and pour over fruit in fermented to kill wild yeast.Then add water to fill and stir and add yeast

Post by **rad14701** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:36 pm

I recently started two brown sugar washes a week apart... The only difference between them is that I brought the first one to a boil and then let it simmer for about 30 minutes and the second one I only warmed up to almost a boil and then shut off the heat...

The first one fermented to completion in three days and was clear and dry by around day six... The second wash fermented for three days and on day six was still cloudy and sweet... The two washes sit side by side and the temperature has been fairly constant...

I've been wondering if not attempting to invert the brown sugar is to blame for the minor issues with the second wash... It's truly the only difference throughout the entire process...

draco · Post by **draco** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:46 pm

blanikdog wrote:I've always just tossed the sugar into a pot with some citric acid and boiled it till it was a straw colour. Probably haven't inverted it at all.

blanik

This is what I do and it seems to me to finish faster than not doing it. But I will admit that when done in this way I add the yeast at a higher temperature (around 90 F) so that may also have something to do with the results.

junkyard dawg · Post by **junkyard dawg** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:32 pm

some food for thought

http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/sugar.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

punkin · Post by **punkin** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:39 am

Freedave wrote:I read a thread recently where someone mentioned the effect that inverted sugar had on the flavor of a neutral spirit. Then i see it mentioned here too. This caught my eye cause I've been trying to identify what is causing the remaining flavor in my wposw. You may remember me asking you guys this question a few months ago.

On the parent site it's mentioned once or twice, but not really stressed as having effect on flavor. I have been thinking up till now it had more to do with the ease/speed of overall fermentation. And i have not been inverting my sugar wash. But now it seems (from reading) to have noticeable effect on flavor.

Any way what I'm wondering is if any one has made similar batches of neutral when the only difference was that you inverted the sugar, or not. And if so did you notice a difference in flavor. I'd like to figure out what is responsible for the remaining flavor in my wposw. So far the key factors seem to be, 1) make sure ferment is complete. 2) make sure it has settled/cleared. 3) run my bokakob with a higher reflux ratio. 4) equalize for longer time. 5) extend column length. 6) do stripping runs. Now i want to see if "invert sugar" should be in the list.

thanks

What abv is your spirit when it comes outa the still Dave?

Freedave · Post by **Freedave** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:18 pm

punkin,

92-93%

Post by **rad14701** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:20 pm

As an addition to my previous post I should also add that the wash without invert sugar displayed a lot more globs of flocculation floating up to the surface compared to the wash where the sugar was inverted... Not sure if it's related or not... I'm just sayin...

Freedave · Post by **Freedave** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:34 pm

rad,
when you get to running and tasting this experiment be sure to let us know. i for one will be watching this thread.

and hawke, hope you don't mind me horning in on your op.

Freedave · Post by **Freedave** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:53 am

Well it's been a week, I'm wondering if rad has run his inverted sugar wash experiment and how it came out.
Or if anyone else who missed this thread the first time around has any opinions on the effect that inverted sugar has on the final taste of a distilled sugar wash.

thanks

Post by **rad14701** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:13 pm

Freedave wrote:Well it's been a week, I'm wondering if rad has run his inverted sugar wash experiment and how it came out.
Or if anyone else who missed this thread the first time around has any opinions on the effect that inverted sugar has on the final taste of a distilled sugar wash.

thanks

To be honest, I forgot about the experiment... I ended up distilling the two experimental recipe washes that had finished, once they cleared, on Monday... What I can say is that the batch that had inverted longer finished quicker...

Yesterday I started another batch that is happily bubbling away in two carbouys... It's only been 24 hours and they may be done in another day or two... My goal is fast yet clean ferments that finish in about 72 hours... This batch appears to be pretty much on target, so far...

For this batch I inverted a combination of white and brown sugars with lemon juice, epsom salt, and 20-20-20 fertilizer for 30 minutes... At the same time I simmered wheat germ and water in another pot for 30 minutes... I then mixed the contents of the two pots together and let them simmer for another 15 minutes... So, only a total of 45 minutes of simmer/par boil time...

The saga continues...

The Chemist · Post by **The Chemist** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:52 am

What does it mean to "invert" "sugar"? Why is it called that? Why would you want to do it? Is there only one way to do it? How do you know when it's "inverted" enough? How many "sugars" can each little yeastie bug eat? What kind do they like? What concentration of what kind of sugar exceeds the osmotic tolerance of the wee little yeasties? What the hell is an osmotic tolerance?

In other words, you can worry yourself to death, or you can do what is known to work. Nothing "wrong" with either approach. Just be advised that if you want to push an envelope, you are, by definition, "going where no one has gone before". Some of us dumbassess will still probably throw a couple of cents in, just because we have egos that aren't quite swollen enough, or because we're just interested and want to see how it comes out. Either way, we appreciate the chance to share (or expose) our knowledge...

From reading the thread "late", it seems to me the Dunder's "head" is in the closest place...or maybe I just "overthink"...or maybe I've just had seventeen too many beer...(well, "deer" is the plural of "deer"...don't get me started on "bathtubim", or "phonebeeth"...)

But, the way I live, I don't do things unless I know WHY, specially if I'm gonna put the results in my body. Not because somebody tol' me so...

Yes...your mileage may vary...

goose eye · Post by **goose eye** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:50 am

ole boya had to barels of cider. one they put a sack of cain suger an other they put a sack
of glucose solids - brewers cyrstals- . that glucose was a pain in the but to melt an got everthang sticky
an that barel didnt make quit as much but the apple was more stronger.

so im tole

Post by **rad14701** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:55 am

The Chemist wrote:What does it mean to "invert" "sugar"? Why is it called that? Why would you want to do it? Is there only one way to do it? How do you know when it's "inverted" enough? How many "sugars" can each little yeastie bug eat? What kind do they like? What concentration of what kind of sugar exceeds the osmotic tolerance of the wee little yeasties? What the hell is an osmotic tolerance?

I wondered about "invert sugar" too, Chemist... I even had to Google it and did lot of research... Seem's that from a brewing standpoint it is more than just dissolving sugar in water... The crux of the ongoing debate revolves around whether the amount of time sugar is inverted makes a difference with respect to fermentation times... It may all be hokus pokus or there may be some legitimate benefit... Perhaps you could do some more in depth scientific research and interject from a chemistry standpoint as opposed to pure skepticism... I'm sure we'd appreciate your professional input...

pHneutral · Post by **pHneutral** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:56 pm

Inverted sugar (syrup) is created by taking sucrose and boiling it in acidic conditions with water to split it into glucose and fructose, which I am guessing you all know already

The kicker is that it behaves differently. For one thing, it stays in solution much better.. wont crystallize out easily so if you are doing a cold, slow ferment it is probably better for that.

Here is the reaction:

C12H22O11 (sucrose) + H2O (water) → C6H12O6 (glucose) + C6H12O6 (fructose)

Its irreversible, so the end product is stable.

Also, it seems that yeast prefer glucose and fructose, and ferment them more cleanly than sucrose, which they have to expend more energy on.

So, although Im not a biochem expert, it seems that they could have an easier time dealing with inverted sugar, and so might tend to produce less off flavors due to reduced stress.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_sugar_syrup" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Post by **minime** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 2:08 pm

From a purely "collecting ethanol" point of view it doesn't make a bit of difference to quality or quantity on a column still. Lots of pot 'stillers swear that it improves flavor though. I've done the experiments for quantity on the column and found no change, with or without.

pHneutral · Post by **pHneutral** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 5:46 pm

I did that as well, minime and I didnt see any difference in quantity, but the inverted batch did have a cleaner taste, and I came out with a bit more hearts.

I'll have to do a true side by side, using exactly the same conditions and nutrients, to really see.

Freedave · Post by **Freedave** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:45 pm

It's been a couple of weeks now, and I thought I'd drag this thread up once more. Like to see if any one else sees it and has input about the effect that inverting sugar has on the flavor of a distilled sugar wash.

So far a few guys say it's a good thing and a few say there's no difference. What do you think?

thanks for the input.

Post by **rad14701** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:13 pm

Freedave wrote:Like to see if an one else sees it and has input about the effect that inverting sugar has on the flavor of a distilled sugar wash.

Personally, and definitely not a professional opinion, I highly doubt that inverting or not inverting sugar would impart much difference in taste... Sugar, regardless of which type, is only present so it can be converted to ethanol... Any flavoring would come from other ingredients (adjuncts) in the wash/mash...

pintoshine · Post by **pintoshine** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:47 pm

I know, I know. The name invert sugar comes from the fact that one of the ways of classifying sugars is from how much they rotate light. Different isomers(chemically identical but different molecular arrangements) behave and rotate polarized light different amounts.
Sucrose rotates light in a particular way and invert sugar(equal mixture of fructose and glucose) rotates it nearly 180 degrees. So the polarized light is "Inverted" hence the name.
Yeast makes a lot of invertase, enzyme that breaks sucrose apart, and invertase is extracted and used by a lot of industries. Candy makers are especially fond of invertase because it allows them to make coated candies that have a liquid center. This is done by making a cream center using powdered sugar and and invertase. The mixture is frozen and dipped. When the mixture comes back to room temperature for a few days you have a liquid center because it is as stated before invert sugar does not crystallize.
So how is this related to alcohol? Invertase not only works on sucrose but a lot of complex sugars. Invertase itself is sweet flavored(yes I was curious when making cordial cherries and tasted it) and lends a cider flavor to sucrose containing fermentations. I can taste the invertase affects in nearly neutral alcohol. I believe it lends a hot taste to the alcohol.
I always sterilize my sugar washes. It is no more trouble to add a little citric or lactic acid to start the inversion ahead of time. It seems I always get a good ferment and have not stuck one that was using inverted sugar. I have never had an inverted sugar wash go bad. Those two attributes alone are worth the extra effort.
My two new pesos worth.

Home Distiller

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