Whiskey & Wood

[King Of Hearts]

Hi guys, this may have been answered before but I can't find it. What wood toast level, amount and process do I flavor whiskey with? My first attempt was very tannic do to over use of heavy toast. Any sugesstions?

[still crazy]

First off what kind of wood are you using
Then whats your "toasting" method

The general idea is the wood should have dried out some "seasoned" then it should not be sapwood but the outer layer.
The wood will still be holding a decent amount of moisture and as you heat it slowly it should began to give off its vapors.
Most people don't realize that when you burn a log its actually the vapors that are burning and the heat creates layer after layer of vapor release.
The best wood to use is White Oak, but sometimes a good hard Maple can be ok too. And what you are trying for is to have the wood give off its essence and lock that to the contact point of your liquid
If you "char" its going to be harsh. If your too light its going to taste like wet swamp.

The best way to say it is it is like "caramelizing" an onion don't burn it let the natural sugars and flavors come through.

[King Of Hearts]

I used store bought heavy toast American white oak chips. I read from someone you should boil the chips for 3 minutes too drop out the tannins. Also what size are best? Are cubes or sticks better? A guy on ebay sells amercain white oak heart wood.

[still crazy]

I do mine the way my dad taught me and its hard to pass on without one on one teaching

I learned how to pick a seasoned log and to check the grain and feel the weight.
That for me is my key. I then take what is about an 1/8 pie cut of an 18 " log and split the log into 1/2" rough staves
Always splitting as the tree grew to keep the fibers from fraying
Then cut the pieces up into 6"-8" lengths and soak them this will expand the fibers
Heating next will allow the steam to open up the pores of the wood and the saps to release
You want to now let the saps caramelize and the wood to be a mellow toast
We heated over a small metal barrel with foreshots on well dried wood, also white oak, as our fire fuel as he didn't want smoke to ruin the process.
I know some members on here have used stoves and aluminum foil or grills but this is my best recollection.

More than this I can't explain. Hope this is helpful.

[Tater]

http://homedistiller.org/graphics/oak_aromatoast.gif" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[ScottishBoy]

The method of toast you use will be dependant on what you are after. Some folks love the alligator char and its rich bite, while others are looking for more subtle flavors.

This graph should give you a better idea of what to shoot for in what you want for your liquor.:

oak_aromatoast.gif (7.99 KiB) Viewed 3549 times

I find this one quite interesting.

[rad14701]

Nice chart, ScottishBoy...

[beelah]

I have been using a half barrel that I bought from a nursery that was selling them as planters.

The barrel was French White oak that had a cab-savg aging in it so it still had the nice red stain on the inside.

There was a nice winey aroma to the wood. I dismanteled the barrel staves, cut into 3/4 inch staves; took the belt sander to the outside quarter and then put them on the gas BBQ and toasted them on three sides until they were a nice medium-to dark brown; while hot threw the sticks into cold clean water.

Two reason sfor the water, the wash off the smoke and ash and as well I have read here and elsewhere that the hot to cold makes the wood contract/pop and seals the sugars in the wood as well as keeping the pours open I guess so the distilate can make its way into the wood where the carmelized sugar and flaours are.

One other thing, is that I don't char the side that has the red wine stain. I find it adds another nice dimention to the the end product.

You can use the whole stick as is, or cut it into smaller pieces for samller containers.

[ScottishBoy]

Nice chart, ScottishBoy...

Ahem...yes.. Same one tater posted exactly one minute before me...

Sorry Tater, dont mean to be steppin on your peaches.

[King Of Hearts]

I found this place after reading the post from barrelcreator. AMERICAN OAK, air dried 24 months. There are 17 sections and each section contains two 8” x 1” x 3/8” pieces. 1 of these packs of 34 sticks will last a long time for under $50 and specifically made for flavoring with American or French oak, in high tech ovens. My next purchase will be from them. https://www.net10.net/ShoppingCart/buy/ ... Add_26.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[NcHooch]

Dang, I need to go into bidness , I got american white oak all over my property here.
Currently I got a half-cord stacked over next to the drive, been there for 2 years ....Yall need a stick or two, swing on by.

NChooch

[King Of Hearts]

If you can process your sticks well enough and don't mind the labor then go for it. Mind you, these commercial grade sticks are of the highest quality you can get.

[loneswinger]

I used store bought heavy toast American white oak chips.

Bad.

The pieces need to be thick heartwood, at least 1 cm. Never use the chips. When I first started I also used the store bought chips from the home brew supply place, everything turned out tannic and almost undrinkable. Use cubes, sticks, barrel staves, barrels, anything but chips. I am willing to bet that lots of people do this when first starting but it is bad, as you now know.

-Loneswinger

[Braz]

Never tried oaking but I'm going to give it a go it on some apple brandy that I'm running today. I went to my friendly local sawmill and picked up a 1"x4"x24" piece of all heart white oak. Old guy charged me $1 for it. Plan to cut some 1/4" deep saw kerfs in it then rip it into 1"x1" sticks about 6" long. I will toast a couple of these at 400F for an hour.

Does this sound like a good idea? I am willing to listen to any suggestions since this will be my first shot at it.

[NcHooch]

I've seen some info floatin around that suggests you might wanna toast at a lower heat ....like 300f

[King Of Hearts]

Never tried oaking but I'm going to give it a go it on some apple brandy that I'm running today. I went to my friendly local sawmill and picked up a 1"x4"x24" piece of all heart white oak. Old guy charged me $1 for it. Plan to cut some 1/4" deep saw kerfs in it then rip it into 1"x1" sticks about 6" long. I will toast a couple of these at 400F for an hour.

Does this sound like a good idea? I am willing to listen to any suggestions since this will be my first shot at it.

Wish I were you. I bought some sticks on Ebay pretty cheap from a chef that toasts them @ 400 for 4 hrs in a commercial oven. Organic American White Oak, no power saw, split with an ax, heart wood, from NC. He sells medium and charred. Don't know yet how they taste. I bought medium but you can char it if you want. http://cgi.ebay.com/Charred-Toasted-Whi ... 2c543043e8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Caprimulgus]

A link that doesn't work over here and a eBay seller that only ships within the US. Just my luck.....

[King Of Hearts]

A link that doesn't work over here and a eBay seller that only ships within the US. Just my luck.....

Try these guys. http://oaksolutionsgroup.com/pages/prod ... terts.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Caprimulgus]

Thank you, I will.

[Coon-ass]

Never tried oaking but I'm going to give it a go it on some apple brandy that I'm running today. I went to my friendly local sawmill and picked up a 1"x4"x24" piece of all heart white oak. Old guy charged me $1 for it. Plan to cut some 1/4" deep saw kerfs in it then rip it into 1"x1" sticks about 6" long. I will toast a couple of these at 400F for an hour.

Does this sound like a good idea? I am willing to listen to any suggestions since this will be my first shot at it.

Wish I were you. I bought some sticks on Ebay pretty cheap from a chef that toasts them @ 400 for 4 hrs in a commercial oven. Organic American White Oak, no power saw, split with an ax, heart wood, from NC. He sells medium and charred. Don't know yet how they taste. I bought medium but you can char it if you want. http://cgi.ebay.com/Charred-Toasted-Whi ... 2c543043e8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Burbank,
I bought those from him. I have been aging for almost 2 months now with a mix of charred and toasted staves.
Bought both from him.
The killer is turning out real nice.
CA

[King Of Hearts]

Never tried oaking but I'm going to give it a go it on some apple brandy that I'm running today. I went to my friendly local sawmill and picked up a 1"x4"x24" piece of all heart white oak. Old guy charged me $1 for it. Plan to cut some 1/4" deep saw kerfs in it then rip it into 1"x1" sticks about 6" long. I will toast a couple of these at 400F for an hour.

Does this sound like a good idea? I am willing to listen to any suggestions since this will be my first shot at it.

Wish I were you. I bought some sticks on Ebay pretty cheap from a chef that toasts them @ 400 for 4 hrs in a commercial oven. Organic American White Oak, no power saw, split with an ax, heart wood, from NC. He sells medium and charred. Don't know yet how they taste. I bought medium but you can char it if you want. http://cgi.ebay.com/Charred-Toasted-Whi ... 2c543043e8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Burbank,
I bought those from him. I have been aging for almost 2 months now with a mix of charred and toasted staves.
Bought both from him.
The killer is turning out real nice.
CA

Yes, I think you need both toast and some char to get it right, seems like you did. How much did you use?

[Coon-ass]

In a gallon glass jug, I put in two of the charred and two of the toasted and distress aged it for a few weeks. Now it is just sitting on my counter. I didn't want to overpower it with wood as I have heard some have done by adding too much oak. I would rather it take longer and taste better. I am to the point right now that I am about to go ahead and bottle it. It appeals to my taste.

[Coon-ass]

...oak has been in the likker for about 2 months now. I am gonna age some in a quart hard with a stave for 6 months and see how it is.

[King Of Hearts]

In a gallon glass jug, I put in two of the charred and two of the toasted and distress aged it for a few weeks. Now it is just sitting on my counter. I didn't want to overpower it with wood as I have heard some have done by adding too much oak. I would rather it take longer and taste better. I am to the point right now that I am about to go ahead and bottle it. It appeals to my taste.

The Chef recommends 3 ounces per gal of spirit. Sounds like your at 1 ounce. We could use less and get more, sweet!

[Caprimulgus]

Would less wood and more time do the same as more wood and less time? Or, would the longer time factor ad any good or bad qualities?

[King Of Hearts]

Would less wood and more time do the same as more wood and less time? Or, would the longer time factor ad any good or bad qualities?

More wood imo, would increase the tannin level and that's hard to get out, almost impossible. There comes a point when too much is too much. I think that's why the barrels are the size they are.

[Caprimulgus]

True. But weren't we talking about a few oz. of sticks in glass here?

[King Of Hearts]

True. But weren't we talking about a few oz. of sticks in glass here?

All I can say is try it out on a small scale till your happy. This is the fun part about making whiskey. You can experiment till your hearts content. I might like it one way but someone else doesn't. I bought some heavy toast chips and way over did a qt jar of whiskey. But I heard that if you boil them for 3 mins it will drop out the tannins. I'm going to try this in a qt to see if that works.

[loneswinger]

Less wood longer does not equal more wood less time in many respects. You might get the same amount of oak extracts and color, but time gives a whole different and perhaps more important thing, esters. Esters will continue to develop with time, add nose, flavor and smoothness to the spirit.

Ideally, you would know exactly how long you plan to age before deciding on a wood level. Most wood flavor, extracts and color develop within the first year. So if you are going to age a year or more, I would use the wood surface to spirit volume ratio found in commercial casks which is right around 100 cm^2 per liter. Then perhaps increase this ratio depending on your expected age. If aging less than a year you could use a little higher surface to volume ratio. For example, if you are aging for 6 months than you may want to use 150 - 200 cm^2 per liter. Straying too far from these numbers could give you an over-oaked spirit (oak flavors dominate and mask your whiskey flavors), or an under-oaked spirit? Might just taste a little thin or a little too much like white dog. This would be better than too much oak!!.

So use the 100 cm^2 per liter (about like a 50 gallon barrel) as a base and adjust from there depending on what you want for age and oaking levels in your finished product. Don't stray too far, even if you plan to age for a week (this would just be oak flavoring really), I would not go beyond 400 cm^2 oak per liter of spirit. And if aging for a really long time, probably not go below about 40 cm^2/ liter (about like a 500 gallon barrel, almost unheard of for spirits). Remember to count all surfaces of your sticks when estimating its surface area because they will sink. Remember to convert units properly.

From my experience the spirits need at least 8-12 months to taste like they are developing age, and to acquire those wonderful whiskey esters that you will easily recognize as good whiskey on the nose and palatte.

-Loneswinger

[blind drunk]

I have some slightly over oaked sugar head and some slightly under oaked of the same. The under oaked is almost a year old and the over oaked is around four months young. I did a blend of the tow to taste and I think it might just be perfect. Now I'll age the blended hooch together bd.