Dangers of Methanol: Something to worry about?

[StillWaterz]

To all the gentlemen of this fine forum.

First off allow me to begin by saying that there truly is no other community (online or offline) much like this one. The exchange of knowledge here is invaluable. I stumbled on this site after digging around the web for a good rum recipe. I looked at Pugi's Rum and thought I was set, but I was wrong. What ensued were weeks of intense and deep (meditative like) home distillation research. I dug through every corner of the forum and soaked up as much as I could from every section before I decided to go at it myself. And I must admit, I am one ecstatic camper! Seriously the results have everyone raving. But the issue of ever producing a botched "blinding" drink was still in the back of my mind, I just couldn't shake it. So I did some more research.

Pure Methanol in as little as 15mL can cause blindness, and as much as 30 mL of it can potentially be fatal (30ml is about 2/3 of a shot). Now thats scary to think, but since we discard the foreshots, which contain the bulk (if any) of the methanol produced, then we should be safe. In the extreme case of methanol poisoning, the effects of which can take hours to set in, an antidote could help to save someone's life and even prevent blindness. The blindness, by the way, causes permanent blindness by destruction of the optical nerve (ouch!). But if an antidote is take soon enough, then you should be fine, but how to get my hands on the antidote?

It turns out that the antidote, Fomepizole, is something a doctor has to prescribe, so a quick trip to the local pharmacy won't help. That just broke my heart thinking my plans of an 'emergency glass antidote box' were shattered (pardon the pun). It wasn't until a rerun episode of House on tv that caught my attention. An inmate was admitted to the hospital and it was later found that he tried to kill himself by ingesting methanol (in the form of ink toner). House saves his life in a MacGyveresc way (as he always does) by having him drink Tequila!

It turns out that an antidote of methanol poising is infect ethanol. Ethanol works as an antidote by competitively inhibiting methanol from metabolizing in the body by means of alcohol hydrogenase (fancy word for alcohol to aldehyde conversion in the body). This allows for methanol to be excreted and urinated out. That means that we're producing the poison and antidote together. So basically if methanol fore shots were not thrown out in proportionate amounts to the alcohol collected, if the methanol were collected in a vat with at least twice the amount of methanol, then that ethanol would in effect act as an antidote.

To make things clear, I am in no way condoning keeping fore shots, in fact I actually throw out more than I should to lower the chances of any methanol effects (hangovers, etc.) I just thought it was relevant information and worth sharing with any freshman distillers that were worried about Methanol as much as I was.

[Bayou-Ruler]

seems like i have hard this before just not stated exactly the same way....................................

[WalkingWolf]

Welcome to HD StillWaterz -- a proper introduction would be a good starting point. You seem to be a bit of an "uptight" type. You're not the only one, just thought it a bit interesting you chose the moniker you did (wishful thinking maybe )

[blind drunk]

An inmate was admitted to the hospital and it was later found that he tried to kill himself by ingesting methanol (in the form of ink toner).

We never drink ink toner 'round here. We're good to go.

[StillWaterz]

Welcome to HD StillWaterz -- a proper introduction would be a good starting point. You seem to be a bit of an "uptight" type. You're not the only one, just thought it a bit interesting you chose the moniker you did (wishful thinking maybe )

Thanks for the welcome walkingwolf (cool name, why didnt i think of that?) yea im probably a bit uptight, I just like to get things right. But yea I chose the moniker as a pun. Hahaha I'm not sure if wishful thinking was involved. Just buzzed drinking

[losthog]

This is an excellent post and puts my mind to rest about one danger of this craft. This is worthy of a bump back to the top.

[LWTCS]

This is an excellent post and puts my mind to rest about one danger of this craft. This is worthy of a bump back to the top.

Depending on the still and the stillman,,,,,,,there might be more methanol in a glass of orange juice..........................

[Bushman]

StillWaterz thanks for the interesting read. After following all the advice here for over a year and many many runs later my mind is at ease! Still enjoy reading and learning

[rad14701]

Also check out methanol on the parent site...

Might be some conflicting information, such as fatal dosage compared to what the OP has stated... The average person probably couldn't drink enough straight foreshots to be problematic from a health standpoint... Using the figures on the parent site, which I have no reason to doubt, a 25 liter boiler charge of crappy wash would only contain ~4.65ml of methanol... I don't think anyone should worry unless they plan on trying to extract methanol from 25 liters or more of foreshots, and even that's a stretch of the imagination...

Suffice it to say that you'd have to try like hell to poison yourself with the methanol while safely participating in home distillation... You'd be more likely die of ethanol poisoning first...

[blanikdog]

Geez rad, you sure know how to stuff up a good paranoia. lolol

[jake_leg]

UK guidelines suggest 600 mg is the maximum safe daily limit for methanol consumption for a 60 kg adult. You'd have to be knocking back foreshots on a daily basis to exceed that limit without also exceeding the limits for safe alcohol (ethanol) consumption (24-32 g per day). Maybe rough fruit brandy with no heads cut would get you there. Or freeze distilled applejack. The banging headache might give you a clue.

[Pith]

Hi. I hope I can provide an interesting problem for us all to work out.

I read somewhere that distilling stuff with high levels of pectin may produce higher levels of methanol in your distillation. Citrus peel contains very high levels of pectin, which aid in the gelling effect needed to make marmalade.

Let me start from the beginning...

My friend gave me some grapefruits from her tree (they're in season here in Oz), which I juiced and made some delicious cordial from. Then, out of damned curiosity, I stuck all the peels (pith, rind and all) into a big bowl, covered with water, and stuck it in the oven for a few hours. I drained the liquid into a pan and made cordial from it (by dumping a buttload of sugar into it and boiling it to dissolve). Let's just say the flavour was far less marketable than the juice-derived cordial. Even watered down with copious amounts of gin. I've been referring to it as "marmalade cordial" in my facebook stati about how bad it is.

Anyway, since I developed a fascination with alcoholic creations after a "vodka infusion phase" (herbs, spices, coffee... the latter of which was very repeatable), I've decided it may be an interesting experience to ferment this marmalade cordial. Did some quick googling, figured it couldn't be too hard to sanitise the equipment, dump some yeast in with it (not sure how much; there's nearly a kilo of it though it fills just over half a 1.25 litre bottle, and it's at least 50 percent sugar) and wait 2-3 months (takes so long due to the high sugar content apparently).

I read somewhere else that fruit wines often taste like cough syrup, which I hate, but that distilling them may make them taste like a nice, potent brandy. Something clicks in my brain remembering something about citrus distillations being very nice, but it's a very vague and probably adulterated memory so probably useless.

Anyway, basically what I'm trying to do is develop fermenting and distilling skills for future experimentation, and hopefully turn something putrid into something palatable (albeit presumably a marmalade grade of bitter) on my first attempt.

Now. To the problem.

Citrus peel has high levels of pectin, which is a gelling agent crucial to producing marmalade. I read on the non-forum version of this page that distilling pectin produces high levels of methanol, and logic suggests that distilling HIGH levels of pectin produces VERY HIGH levels of methanol. Now, that last post there suggests that it would be difficult to consume any dangerous amount of methanol, but I figuredI should get as much advice on the matter beforehand and hopefully get it right the first time without making myself ill or injured.

[Dnderhead]

pectin by its self is not bad its when its broken down it becomes high levels of methanol.
now pectin/acid/heat-makes jell. from this id think you could boil fruit peels-cool- strain
off pectin. then use the oils/liquids as flavor.doing this way you could end up with two products,the flavors of fruit and the pectin to make jell with.if you use pectic enzymes then you are braking down the pectin
and making more menthol.

[rad14701]

Pith, the short answer to you what I believe your ultimate question to be is that you aren't going to end up with enough methanol to be concerned with unless you intentionally extract it in its purest form from multiple distillations and ingest it... The whole deadly amounts of methanol in distilled spirits has been adequately covered here in the forums...

How many grapefruits would you need to eat in order to die of methanol poisoning...??? Too many... You'd die from the citric acid or some other component first...

How much distilled spirits with poor or no foreshots cuts would you have to drink in order to die of methanol poisoning...??? Won't happen... You'll die of ethanol poisoning first because ethanol is the antidote for methanol poisoning and there is far more ethanol in distilled spirits than methanol...

You should probably worry more about the excess pectin killing off the yeast colony than the methanol it is associated with...

So, after a short answer has turned into a longer explanation, stop worrying about methanol...