Question about Ethanol permit

[Coon-ass]

Let me preface this with a statement that I have not looked into doing this so I do not know all of the paperwork one needs etc...
According to Kentucky Shiner, while chatting with him the other day, he said it was very easy to get. Meaning a permit to make ethanol as fuel.

I was thinking about this because I was watching some of his videos for one of his flutes I should be getting in a few days and he always started off showing his permit he has
framed on his wall. Now, we all know the legal reasons as to why he does this so we don't need to get into that area.

But what I was thinking about is if one were to get this "easy to attain" permit as he said it was, does this open up a whole new can of worms?
I was thinking a while back of getting my FFL because I love guns and thought it would be a nice adjunct to my hobby plus I could get them cheaper. Well,
after some research you need a store front, etc...but my friend who had one told me that was the last thing I wanted because it allowed the Feds access to your house, etc anytime without a warrant to inspect your guns.

Does this also apply to an ethanol for fuel permit? If a person were to get one, do you now open yourself up for closer scrutiny? It seems it would be a great loophole way of becoming semi-legal because you could always say you were making it for fuel....now explaining why your fuel tastes like apple pie or strawberry, is another monster all together..

Does anyone have this type of permit and if so, have you ever had any issues? I am curious as to what people think about this and if it is worthwhile getting it or would one be opening themselves up for a lot of legal trouble once the law knows you have a still?

Just curious. "A man banged on my door screaming Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms....hell, I thought he was there to restock me!"

[Prairiepiss]

Exactly as you stated about getting a FFL. Same thing with this permit. It gives them access any time they want. And if I'm not mistaken you have to provide a paper trail to all your supplys and where the fuel went?

[Bayou-Ruler]

I have been in the process of getting the Alcohol Fuel Producer Permit for going on 3 months. Yes you do open yourself up to closer scrutiny. Besides having to submit a drawing of your property and the building where the still and fuel will be stored, you have to submit proof that you own the property, a photo copy of your drivers license or state ID and assign and submit a serial number for the still if it don't have one. I know this because after two months I received the application back with a letter explaining that the fore mentioned additional information was needed to process my application. So I resubmitted with the additional information and continue to wait................................. Its a slow process.............................

[rad14701]

The entire listed property is subject to inspection (read as search), not just the areas indicated as used for production and storage... You agree to that at the time you sign the paperwork, not just when it is approved, as I understand the process... I can't guarantee this to be 100% accurate but it is inline with how most other government paperwork goes...

[Bull Rider]

How are you going to explain to the nice G man in the cheap suit that your tractor really runs better on ethanol that's been oaked for six months?

I'm just saying, sometimes it's better to stay off of the Federal radar.


Bull.

[Bayou-Ruler]

Well I don't have any thing on hand, so I'm not worried. Shoot............I don't even drink! I simply enjoy fermentation & distillation.

[Razor Still]

I am also considering applying for an ethanol fuel permit but have a lot of the same questions. I can actually see trying to power my truck on ethanol but for the most part, my production would end up in a glass. Has anyone had the federal guys coming around to see what exactly you are doing with your product??

[Bayou-Ruler]

I am also considering applying for an ethanol fuel permit but have a lot of the same questions. I can actually see trying to power my truck on ethanol but for the most part, my production would end up in a glass. Has anyone had the federal guys coming around to see what exactly you are doing with your product??

Well with my luck, A Suburban full of them will show up wearing SWAT gear and carrying MP5's ........... The consensus among those who have the Fuel Producer Permits is that they don't usually come out to your place, they do a phone interview with you and go from there. I guess I will eventually find out!

[Tater]

I am also considering applying for an ethanol fuel permit but have a lot of the same questions. I can actually see trying to power my truck on ethanol but for the most part, my production would end up in a glass. Has anyone had the federal guys coming around to see what exactly you are doing with your product??

Yep friend of mine got the fuel permit about 10 years ago.They came out and checked it out at start up.Then dropped by few time unexpected next few years to make sure that his containers had proper tags on on them and checked to see if was mixed with gasoline.Aint seen-em since.

[Husker]

Does this also apply to an ethanol for fuel permit?

Yes. Not sure about your house, but they can (and will) inspect at their desire, your registered distillation location, and any storage locations.

Fuel permits are fine, but keep in mind, if you are drinking product, and are caught, the penalties will likely be harsher, than for someone without said permit. If you get a 10k proof gallon permit (which is easy and free to do), and after 2 years, you are caught producing drinking spirits, I would bet my left nut that the feds will come after you (after any other charges), for the back spirit taxes on 20k proof gallons, even if you did not make that much. 20k proof gallons is $270,000. Once you become licensed, you are in that 'should have known better' group. Ignorance (while it will not save your ass), can NOT be used AT ALL, by a license holder.

H.

[Bayou-Ruler]

Well to update my permit status................ I finally got approval from the Alcohol And Tobacco Tax And Trade Bureau. I now posses a valid Federal Alcohol Fuel Producer Permit. Under the provisions of my permit I can legally produce up to 10,000 gallons of Ethanol per calender year for FUEL. I am required to make gauges, take inventories, and maintain records of my operations. I also have to file a report each calender year with the TTB summarizing my fuel plant activities. I am required to keep my permit and application on file on the permit premises and readily available for examination by TTB officials. And of course they can show up to look around anytime they wish.

On a side note for those who are curious, no one ever came out to inspect my property prior to issuing the permit and as a matter of fact, they did not even talk to me on the phone about it.

Others experiences may varies.................

[PA41]

Well to update my permit status................ I finally got approval from the Alcohol And Tobacco Tax And Trade Bureau. I now posses a valid Federal Alcohol Fuel Producer Permit. Under the provisions of my permit I can legally produce up to 10,000 gallons of Ethanol per calender year for FUEL. I am required to make gauges, take inventories, and maintain records of my operations. I also have to file a report each calender year with the TTB summarizing my fuel plant activities. I am required to keep my permit and application on file on the permit premises and readily available for examination by TTB officials. And of course they can show up to look around anytime they wish.

On a side note for those who are curious, no one ever came out to inspect my property prior to issuing the permit and as a matter of fact, they did not even talk to me on the phone about it.

Others experiences may varies.................

Congratulations BR!!

I'm in a similar situation--don't hardly drink, and just like to do stuff. I have considered the same approach, but backed away from it because of the Fed involvement and just decided to make wine for Christmas presents.

If you are able to sell the fuel, and like to do marketing, dirt tracks run a lot of alky burners and It's pretty spendy stuf. Dirt racing has such a close attachment to moonshining, you could have some fun marketing a legal homebrewed product from a cottage industry standpoint. I'm sure they denature it and add things (I seem to remember some cars exhaust smelled like strawberries ) you might offer custom blends or something.

Whatever you do --it sounds like good fun.

Good on ya...

PA41

[Bayou-Ruler]

Well to update my permit status................ I finally got approval from the Alcohol And Tobacco Tax And Trade Bureau. I now posses a valid Federal Alcohol Fuel Producer Permit. Under the provisions of my permit I can legally produce up to 10,000 gallons of Ethanol per calender year for FUEL. I am required to make gauges, take inventories, and maintain records of my operations. I also have to file a report each calender year with the TTB summarizing my fuel plant activities. I am required to keep my permit and application on file on the permit premises and readily available for examination by TTB officials. And of course they can show up to look around anytime they wish.

On a side note for those who are curious, no one ever came out to inspect my property prior to issuing the permit and as a matter of fact, they did not even talk to me on the phone about it.

Others experiences may varies.................

Congratulations BR!!

I'm in a similar situation--don't hardly drink, and just like to do stuff. I have considered the same approach, but backed away from it because of the Fed involvement and just decided to make wine for Christmas presents.

If you are able to sell the fuel, and like to do marketing, dirt tracks run a lot of alky burners and It's pretty spendy stuf. Dirt racing has such a close attachment to moonshining, you could have some fun marketing a legal homebrewed product from a cottage industry standpoint. I'm sure they denature it and add things (I seem to remember some cars exhaust smelled like strawberries ) you might offer custom blends or something.

Whatever you do --it sounds like good fun.

Good on ya...

PA41

Thank Ya PA41,

I can't sell the ethanol fuel I have to use and store all of my product on my property.

[hendecp]

One quick comment to all of this. I was researching this the other day as I have been holding the application all filled out in my hand for over 3 months teetering on what I should do. There is the Federal component to doing this to produce fuel, but as we all know the state you reside in has a say. To be, legally legal...... YOu need a federal permit and check with local and state laws. They may require you to have a permit as well. The state can bust you and the federal gov't isn't going to back you up or bail you out because you have their permit. Beer brewing and wine making is the same way. I think Alabama does not even allow you to make beer at home like the rest of the country.... I may be wrong on this, but either way check out local and state too.

My .02

[Bayou-Ruler]

One quick comment to all of this. I was researching this the other day as I have been holding the application all filled out in my hand for over 3 months teetering on what I should do. There is the Federal component to doing this to produce fuel, but as we all know the state you reside in has a say. To be, legally legal...... YOu need a federal permit and check with local and state laws. They may require you to have a permit as well. The state can bust you and the federal gov't isn't going to back you up or bail you out because you have their permit. Beer brewing and wine making is the same way. I think Alabama does not even allow you to make beer at home like the rest of the country.... I may be wrong on this, but either way check out local and state too.

My .02

You are correct, That's why you receive two copies of your application back with the Permit Packet. The confirmation letter which is also included states " We are enclosing the state copy of your application, which you should forward to the appropriate agency, if required."

[Bull Rider]

Washington State has a "Craft Distillers" license for $100.00 a year. I called and tried to purchase one, and the first question they asked was for my federal distillers license.

So, they got ya by the short hairs. It's impossible to be legal at the home distiller level. Now the feds and state enforcement folks don't seem to be hiding in the weeds to bust home distillers at the hobby scale, but it would be nice to be legal and not have to worry about the odd chance of being busted for something like home distilling.



B u l l.

[ipee7ABV]

Well to update my permit status................ I finally got approval from the Alcohol And Tobacco Tax And Trade Bureau. I now posses a valid Federal Alcohol Fuel Producer Permit. Under the provisions of my permit I can legally produce up to 10,000 gallons of Ethanol per calender year for FUEL. I am required to make gauges, take inventories, and maintain records of my operations. I also have to file a report each calender year with the TTB summarizing my fuel plant activities. I am required to keep my permit and application on file on the permit premises and readily available for examination by TTB officials. And of course they can show up to look around anytime they wish.

On a side note for those who are curious, no one ever came out to inspect my property prior to issuing the permit and as a matter of fact, they did not even talk to me on the phone about it.

Others experiences may varies.................

Congratulations BR!!

I'm in a similar situation--don't hardly drink, and just like to do stuff. I have considered the same approach, but backed away from it because of the Fed involvement and just decided to make wine for Christmas presents.

If you are able to sell the fuel, and like to do marketing, dirt tracks run a lot of alky burners and It's pretty spendy stuf. Dirt racing has such a close attachment to moonshining, you could have some fun marketing a legal homebrewed product from a cottage industry standpoint. I'm sure they denature it and add things (I seem to remember some cars exhaust smelled like strawberries ) you might offer custom blends or something.

Whatever you do --it sounds like good fun.

Good on ya...

PA41

Thank Ya PA41,

I can't sell the ethanol fuel I have to use and store all of my product on my property.

what do you have that you can use that much ethanol to burn?

[Bayou-Ruler]

what do you have that you can use that much ethanol to burn?

Generators and mowing equipment.

10,000 proof gallons is the maximum amount of ethanol I am allowed to legally produce and or store under the small scale alcohol fuel plant permit.I don't have to produce any ethanol at all. I just cant go over two years without production. I can store up to 10,000 proof gallons from another AFP, or 1 proof gallon, there is no minimum only a max.

Small plants. A small alcohol fuel plant (small plant) is a plant which produces and/or receives not more than 10,000 proof gallons of spirits in one calendar year.

Medium plants. A medium alcohol fuel plant (medium plant) is a plant which produces and/or receives more than 10,000 but not more than 500,000 proof gallons of spirits per calendar year.

Large plants. A large alcohol fuel plant (large plant) produces and/or receives more than 500,000 proof gallons of spirits per calendar year.

An AFP that produces and/or receives not more than 10,000 proof gallons or less of distilled spirits per year is not required to obtain a bond. However, an AFP that only receives less than 10,000 proof gallons of distilled spirits per year, must furnish a bond in accordance with 27 CFR 19.699. AFPs that produce and/or receive more than 10,000 proof gallons of distilled spirits per year are required to obtain a bond.

[ipee7ABV]

what do you have that you can use that much ethanol to burn?

Generators and mowing equipment.

10,000 proof gallons is the maximum amount of ethanol I am allowed to legally produce and or store under the small scale alcohol fuel plant permit.I don't have to produce any ethanol at all. I just cant go over two years without production. I can store up to 10,000 proof gallons from another AFP, or 1 proof gallon, there is no minimum only a max.

Small plants. A small alcohol fuel plant (small plant) is a plant which produces and/or receives not more than 10,000 proof gallons of spirits in one calendar year.

Medium plants. A medium alcohol fuel plant (medium plant) is a plant which produces and/or receives more than 10,000 but not more than 500,000 proof gallons of spirits per calendar year.

Large plants. A large alcohol fuel plant (large plant) produces and/or receives more than 500,000 proof gallons of spirits per calendar year.

An AFP that produces and/or receives not more than 10,000 proof gallons or less of distilled spirits per year is not required to obtain a bond. However, an AFP that only receives less than 10,000 proof gallons of distilled spirits per year, must furnish a bond in accordance with 27 CFR 19.699. AFPs that produce and/or receive more than 10,000 proof gallons of distilled spirits per year are required to obtain a bond.

do you just change jets or do you have special motor

[Bayou-Ruler]

do you just change jets or do you have special motor

No jetting or special engines. I don't blend enough ethanol in the gasoline that I use in my equipment to require re jetting.

Now lets get back on topic, If you have questions concerning the TTB permitting process feel free to ask them and I will help you if I can.

If you have more specific questions concerning how I use ethanol, private message me with them and get to the point of what you want to know.

[tickle]

br,
can you describe the proceedures oyu need to follow once "legal"? in terms of recod keeping, reciepts, labels, ect....practical advice from somebody who has done it type of thing. what we should expect when, if, they come by, what they will be looking for

[Jmcdaniel0]

I know this is an old thread, but I couldn't find a better fit anywhere else.

I have a couple of questions,

1. If I apply for a small afp, 10k or less I do not need a bond, correct?

And

2. Can you describe th best way to catalog, inventory, and maintain all paperwork the permit requires?

I live on my families 800 acre cattle and tobacco farm, w could actually benefit from this. Up until now my efforts have been solely focused on drinkable hooch. But buying gas is getting more and more expensive, not to mention I think we can ge some tax credits aswell. Might be a win win for us.

[Bushman]

I know this is an old thread, but I couldn't find a better fit anywhere else.

I have a couple of questions,

1. If I apply for a small afp, 10k or less I do not need a bond, correct?

And

2. Can you describe th best way to catalog, inventory, and maintain all paperwork the permit requires?

I live on my families 800 acre cattle and tobacco farm, w could actually benefit from this. Up until now my efforts have been solely focused on drinkable hooch. But buying gas is getting more and more expensive, not to mention I think we can ge some tax credits aswell. Might be a win win for us.

I would PM Bayou Ruler, he doesn't always post on a regular basis but I am sure he has gone through the whole process and probably can best answer your questions. His post is just above yours!

[Prairiepiss]

This would ne a good thread for you to read. It mite shine some light on the economics of it.

Im not seeing ethanol as a cheaper fuel source...help?
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =5&t=23617

[Jmcdaniel0]

I thought about it not being economical, but I have access to literal metric tons of refuse crops, tomatoes, carrots, potatoes, corn being the biggest ones we grow and harvest. Typically we make foul smelling mulch type stuff out of it or feed it to our pigs, but 20 pigs can only eat so much. I have LP rights to a piece of property so the heat source is taken care of. My only real cost is,time, effort, and misc. materials. I haven't set down and really broke it up by line item, but I think I have the makings of relatively cheap fuel.

[Prairiepiss]

I would sit down with a calculator. And figure it all out before you jump into it. Not all scraps are good for making alcohol. Of those you mentioned corn would be the obvious best choice. Even if you get it for free and heat for free. There is a lot a lot of labor involved. While you are doing your calculations. Make sure you are using real world numbers. These can ne found here. There are many fuel websites that claim all kinds of BS. That makes it look very good. But generally its the ramblings of hypothetical BS.

At best you would be able to supplement a very small amount. And the labor involved is what would kill it. If you spent the same amount of time working a part-time job. You would save more money then you would save.