Packed or Plated?

[Frosteecat]

This has been discussed a few thousand times. On the parent site they talk about HETP’s Height equivalent to theoretical plates. I am not sure who originally coined the phrase. The simple explanation is that packing creates more natural distillations in less space.

A large commercial distillation column is tall with many plates.
Instead of a pyramid consider a high rise staircase. At initial boil the vapor includes some water and all fractions of alcohol. What we call fractions are the higher alcohols and lower alcohols that have flavor congeners. All alcohol starts up the staircase with the lower boiling point (higher alcohols) making it farther up with lower alcohols being left behind.(fat and out of shape but tasty)

With a 4-6 plate flute or Larry’s super thumper the express elevator is used. (power in) Everybody gets to head up to the top floor where water guys are kicked back down.

ABV is raised simply by forcibly holding back liquid until water separation has occurred using a reflux condenser. The results are a heavy tasting spirit. The tails with flavor congeners are taken with hearts. Great for Rum or whiskey but not for neutral.

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=23796 I have learned a lot since that post and some of my conclusions were wrong.

Uh...WOW! That totally made sense to me! You paint a great picture of the process and I'm a visual learner. Two things though....are you sure you should have "rookie" in your handle still or are you being ironic? and secondly...you aren't really a native Washingtonian are you? That would require me to realign my whole worldview...

[mash rookie]

Uh...WOW! That totally made sense to me! You paint a great picture of the process and I'm a visual learner. Two things though....are you sure you should have "rookie" in your handle still or are you being ironic? and secondly...you aren't really a native Washingtonian are you? That would require me to realign my whole worldview...

I have been so busy building equipment I have never gotten around to learning AG. So I am still a "Mash Rookie" Yes, I have lived my whole life in or near Seattle.
Before you start thinking nice things about Washingtonians remember we are north of you so we get to look down on Oregonians. ( Especially if they are Duck fans)

[Frosteecat]

How can anyone in Seattle look down on Oregon?!? I'll give you Pikes Place and Safeco but the rest is just gridlock and transplants...
And I'm a former Spokaneite so I KNOW Washington sucks!!!

[mash rookie]

LOL. Just figuratively looking down because of how maps are drawn. Cant argue with the gridlock and lousy drivers. I think they ALL moved here. I have been here long enough to remember when you could actually drive somewhere without getting stuck in traffic.

So, you’re a Cougar in Duck land? How’s that working out for you? Still wearing red?

[Frosteecat]

Oh no I'm a native Oregonian...I did a brief stint there as a corporate brat.
I am neither Duck (not a big Kelly fan but props for his success) nor Beav but lean toward the latter...I am a:


Which no one has ever heard of but is located in lovely Ashland, Oregon. HUGE party school and a really cool town.

[johnhopper1957]

But if you are concerned with repeatable runs the the packed columns will likely require a bit more of a learning curve (or not)to figure the best amount of packing and so forth for your desired outcome.

Yep very true, with a detuned reflux still, 1 meter column with only very little packing you will still get 90% which I think is to high (my opinion). You do need to do a few runs and play aound to get what you want.

Edit: One thing I want to add, there is no "wrong way" if you stick to the basics i.e no lead etc. If you run a pot still and are happy with it fine, if you run a perf plate still and are happy fine, bubble cap fine, VM then detune for whiskey fine, LM detune for whisky fine, if you want to build the shiniest still ever or never clean it up fine.

I have seen a lot of people trying to tell people "you need to do ........" if you do it differently you are wrong, they may not be wrong they could be just doing it differently and still get the same or better results then again they could get worse results......... but it is what they are happy with.

[Prairiepiss]

I can get 80% to 85% with my packed cm. It's not easy. And takes some driving to get there. And it actually comes out nice.

[blind drunk]

I can get 80% to 85% with my packed cm. It's not easy. And takes some driving to get there. And it actually comes out nice.

Is that from a single run?

[Prairiepiss]

Yes single run. It likes to run up around 90% so I have to really drive it to get it to hold between 80 and 85. I bet it would be easier taking some of the packing out. But I'm a little on the lazy side. I like leaving it in there. But I'm hoping with the new addition it will make all this easier.

[mash rookie]

Frosty, I hope we have helped answer a few of your questions. Did you read the thread I linked? Usge is humble. He posted a very insightful post there as well. Also, If you can find it there is an old Kiwi post somewhere that really explains fractions and flavor congeners. It was quite helpful to me early on.

PP, Can you describe your rig? The new designs I am working on are packed columns. I hope to be able to dual purpose them with operational changes or mechanical modifications so they are truly able to make perfect neutral or full flavored drinks.

Cheers!

[Prairiepiss]

Just a CM still. Have 32" of packed 2" with a reflux condenser made from coiled 1/4" tube 8' long. Housed in a 5" ball. Then a 1" takeoff over to my 3" shotgun. Separate cooling controls for both condensers. Like in the cm mod thread.It's all in the my stuff link in my signature.

It will run 95% single run (very slow) like I said it really likes running at 90%. But I can get it to run from mid 70s up to 95%. If I run a stripped run or a feints run it will pull 95% easy and at a nice speed. Pot still gives me 60% to low 70s. I run feints through in pot still mode. And get 80s? It's been a while since I did that so can't remember exactly?

I love my cm still. I can't wait to get my new addition done. So I can test it out. Got oxygen regulator and beadblasting stuff so hopefully this weekend it will be finished. Then we can get down to business.

[mash rookie]

LOL, I have never read your links. I guess I will have to do it now. I agree, ya gotta love a CM. LM and VM's have had their day in the sun. Great but limited. As we move into uncharted territory for hobbyist and micro distillers, CM is the only option. I have considered starting a new thread just to discuss reflux condensers. Soon my back will have healed enough that I don’t have to take a break every hour and bug you guys.

Frosty, Packing! Packing! Packing! Unless you want to make brandy.

[Frosteecat]

Frosty, I hope we have helped answer a few of your questions. Did you read the thread I linked? Usge is humble. He posted a very insightful post there as well. Also, If you can find it there is an old Kiwi post somewhere that really explains fractions and flavor congeners. It was quite helpful to me early on.

Yes but I'm going to have to read it a few more times. It made my head spin a little. There's a reason I have a Liberal Arts degree y'know.

I am also an "input" learner which means I will gorge my brain on as many details as possible until I grasp something in its entirety. This topic (distilling) was WAAAAAY more than I thought it would be....luckily I have held onto simple pot stilling as my mental anchor...
The rest of it threatens to melt my motherboard....
I will digest all this for a while...then be back with more questions.

[Frosteecat]

LOL, I have never read your links. I guess I will have to do it now. I agree, ya gotta love a CM. LM and VM's have had their day in the sun. Great but limited. As we move into uncharted territory for hobbyist and micro distillers, CM is the only option. I have considered starting a new thread just to discuss reflux condensers. Soon my back will have healed enough that I don’t have to take a break every hour and bug you guys.

Frosty, Packing! Packing! Packing! Unless you want to make brandy.

Oh yea a condensor thread,


Frosty, PLATES!,PLATES!,PLATES! Sorry MR, I'm a plate guy(for now )sinker, laugh, nudge rib!

I'm just going to pack some water cooled plates and call it a day.

[mash rookie]

That’s how it happens. After weeks of head spinning you will wake up one morning with the Ahh Ha's. Now I get it!!! It is a lot of information to process.

Welcome to the sickness. Understanding is the first sign of addiction. Reserve a room at the local asylum now while there is room.

[Frosteecat]

Well I truly appreciate the mentoring you guys give and am happy it opened up a fascinating dialogue. Lots of great info in this thread!

[short bus]

After patiently reading everything, here is my 2c. CM stills work pretty darn good! They seem to totally dominate the market of commercially available hobby size stills for good reasons. I am very happy with mine Having said that, I am totally guilty of Copper Envy and dream of owning a flute. If you are new to the hobby, you can't go wrong with one. As far as the great advice available, take it with a "grain of salt" I didn't learn jack till I disregarded it all (advice) and did my own thing, PERIOD! Once I did, all that sage advice made sense and didn't always apply to me and what I was doing. To be clear, I greatly appreciate with brilliant minds that freely share them as well as there time!! Read the and follow the safety stuff and experiment, experiment, experiment!!
The only lessons I seem to learn are the hard ones ! A perfect example is my Wheat Whiskey (AB cereal & wheat bran now). I noticed that each successive run was getting rougher with less of the tasties!! I finally figured out it was because I WAS CLEARING THE MASH and getting good at it! Then one run I was feeling thirsty and lazy and didn't clear the mash. Not that you won't find that discussed here (distilling on the grain), it is just not commonly talked about.
I have found intellectual overload a common problem with this hobby! And that is awesome! When I started, I learned from a lot old time shiners who had a different term for everything and seemed to enjoy annoying me with misinformation! I will never forget the relief (and good information in uniform terminology) I found with Tony Aucklands Original site.

Keep on, keeping on!!!
SB
A new oldtimer and I still don't know anything!

[short bus]

My Harrangue asside, a second thought about CM stills. They can be finiky and persnicerdy to deal with, but they do keep stilltend'n exciting! The temps are never the same twice! Trust me I know, I wrote it all down. I never recycle exactly the same amount of feints each time and I am approximate with my wash #'s, I DO THIS FOR FUN ! I still manage to make whiskey so damn good I don't buy any ! I make alot of mistakes, but this is where I learn the most Still a mighty fine investment for a newbie or and oldie I am a practical kinda guy and I give a darn about Nuertral either! It might be more cost & time effective to use a carbon filter? Like I said I never gave a dam. Anyhow, the threads are out there that explain the mods required to get 95% you seek. I also want to emphisize that it is usually penny wise and dollar stupid to build this type of still! Unless you have the right connections and all the tools
Again, just my 2c.

SB

[Frosteecat]

I'm not all that interested in drinking neutral per se, but I would like to learn to build one and run it. I do plan on putting a small amount aside for flavored liquors (Schnapps, peach, berry) and for use with medicinal tinctures and as a "backup" fuel source I can keep stored in case of major catastrophes.

[Prairiepiss]

I'm not all that interested in drinking neutral per se, but I would like to learn to build one and run it. I do plan on putting a small amount aside for flavored liquors (Schnapps, peach, berry) and for use with medicinal tinctures and as a "backup" fuel source I can keep stored in case of major catastrophes.

I'm not a big neutral/vodka fan. But I love using it for flavoring. Like my Mr P's Fire Piss. And any panty dropper. It's really fun playing with stuff like that. And having a good neutral makes it even nicer. As you can imagine some of my first attempts at neutral wasn't the best. And some flavoring experiments from them were a bust. But latter tried the same with some good neutral and they were great. But that's the fun of it for me. Experimenting and finding what works and what doesn't.

Short Bus I'm right there with you. About the CM stills. But I'm wanting to take it to the next level with my latest build. So I can get even more out of my cm still.

[Usge]

Biggest complaint about operating a CM is long runtimes. That's the most common anyway. The flutes...done right...can produce the same 90%, full of flavor...pissing a stream like a cow pissing on a flat rock. There's trade-offs to everything. And there's the biggest difference right there.

[Bushman]

Biggest complaint about operating a CM is long runtimes. That's the most common anyway. The flutes...done right...can produce the same 90%, full of flavor...pissing a stream like a cow pissing on a flat rock. There's trade-offs to everything. And there's the biggest difference right there.

Using a flute or packing is not going to change the run time it is the diameter of the column. My new still will have packing with a 4" column, dephlagmater, and shotgun condenser. When finished I will document some of my run results both making neutrals and whiskey.

It will be interesting to see how much flavor comes through while running it fast without much cooling in the dephlagmater.

[Marshwalker]

Gotcha. Not to be too pedantic but while there is a ton of discussion it often is comparative and delves really deeply into minutae, with all of you experts fabulously "riffing" off each other and often times very diplomatically backing off strong statements of "x is better than y".

Hey jack!! did you just curse me out? .... i don't know what the hell that means bubba.. but it sounds waaaaay smarter than me

[Usge]

That's true Bushie....I dont' know I've even seen a 4" CM here yet. Might have been one, just don't recall it. I have run experiments on 2" with exactly what you describe vs plates. (ie., I used the same deplegmator head/condenser on both tubes). Be interesting to see your results.

[heartcut]

One run whiskey or rum through my packed 2 1/2", the hearts come out at 20 min/ qt with mild flavor. As the abv starts to drop, turning up the heat and the reflux gives a qt or two of (good) intensely flavored distillate at 45 min/ qt. Blending the two makes spirits as full flavored as desired. This might give an atvantage over a plated still where the smearing of the tails into the hearts might be harder to control. There's normally about 1/2 qt of nasty tails after the reflux is turned down (or off).
Plated stills have many happy users, no offense, just my observations.
I have plans for a 4" packed still with 1 valve plate on the bottom but don't anticipate having the time to do it for the next 6 months or so. Going to be hard to wait.

[mash rookie]

One run whiskey or rum through my packed 2 1/2", the hearts come out at 20 min/ qt with mild flavor. As the abv starts to drop, turning up the heat and the reflux gives a qt or two of (good) intensely flavored distillate at 45 min/ qt. Blending the two makes spirits as full flavored as desired. This might give an atvantage over a plated still where the smearing of the tails into the hearts might be harder to control. There's normally about 1/2 qt of nasty tails after the reflux is turned down (or off).

Well understood and stated Heartcut. I love my flute and she is fun to run but limited. What gets lost in all the talk is that all the fractions are there in your wash. A packed column will make whiskey or rum with great flavor by running faster or blending with more tails. That is better control than all of it being pushed through smeared together.

There is a well written old post about blending rum. The author noted that the early tails were off flavor while the deep tails with “rum oil” added very good flavor. You do not have enough control with a flute to do that.

No matter how cool they look.
MR

[Frosteecat]

Gotcha. Not to be too pedantic but while there is a ton of discussion it often is comparative and delves really deeply into minutae, with all of you experts fabulously "riffing" off each other and often times very diplomatically backing off strong statements of "x is better than y".

Hey jack!! did you just curse me out? .... i don't know what the hell that means bubba.. but it sounds waaaaay smarter than me

Alors pas! Ca veut dire "je sais pa.... tu peux le répéter" en anglais. C'est la même chose. J’aime écrire!
I aint puttin no gree gree on ya, l'ami!

[Marshwalker]

Alors pas! Ca veut dire "je sais pa.... tu peux le répéter" en anglais. C'est la même chose. J’aime écrire!
I aint puttin no gree gree on ya, l'ami!

I don't speak fluent french... and don't have a clue what most of those words are.. only a few like repeat, english.. thas bout it.. if your jumpin on me for what i typed, my post was just a joke..didn't mean nothin by it..just picking on you for me not knowing all those fancy words, thats it.

[mash rookie]

Packed or plated? Packed or plated? Packed or plated? Thats pretty straight forward english.

I am building a six inch packed column.

Anybody care to guess at how many BTU's it will take to maintain vapor speed at 48"? Reflux % vs height and coolant required for 95%. Sound French?

I dont know yet. I will have to learn on the fly. If i could just get the damn fly to hold still a moment I could do the math.

Screw the math. Im pouring another. I love geometry but hate math. Does that make sense?


Let us go where no man has gone before. Buy a new toilet.

[rad14701]

I am building a six inch packed column.

What are you planning on packing a six inch column with, mash rookie...??? What structured packing won't compress...??? Or are you planning on using support screens every few inches...???