My new approach to making a neutral

[Odin]

For my neutrals I toyed around with Turbo's first. Then I switched to All Bran and fractionated the sh*t out of that. Gave me a great vodka. With some mouthfeel. But I also want to have a really neutral neutral, if you get my point. For infusions, limoncello, that kinda stuff. Or just as a very neutral base for young style genever or snowflake vodka. So I tried Birdwatchers, but didn't like what came out. Too neutral? Dunno, something is not all right in that recipe. No offense to anybody using it with great success, but ... not to my liking.

So I tried to come up with something myself. The simplest of sugar washes? Maybe. If it will be a success that is. Not sure there. Just starting up.

This is what I did for a 5 gallon/20 liter recipe:
- I took 4.5 kilo's of granulated sugar;
- And added hot water to dissolve it (about 2 1/2 gallons, 10 liters of my hottest tap water);
- I added half a water soluble Vitamin complex (100% daily amount) and half a b-Vit complex (two times 50%, you might say);
- I put a table spoon of dry granulated baker's yeast in a pan with some water, and boiled it for 5 minutes;
- I added that water with cooked yeast to the hot water with dissolved sugar;
- Then I added cold water from the shower head: to cool it and too aereate it;
- Temps were around 90 degrees F / 28 degrees C when well mixed: 20 liters at that;
- I then added and stirred in two table spoons of dry granulated baker's yeast and poored everything into the fermentor.

Multi-Vit and B-complex are for vits and minerals. Cooked up yeast should provide proteins and some other nutrients.

Just did some (parent site) calculations and I might have added a bit too much sugar. Going towards 14%. That's pretty much the threshold for baker's yeast. Maybe 4 kilo's would have been better.

Well, it just started to bubble. Taking of slowly. I hope this will be a success. Didn't correct for PH. Tap water is 7.5 around here. A bit high (sweet) for yeast, but they will pretty soon change the environment to their liking, I guess (and hope): lowering the PH of the wash.

Any comments? Did I forget something? Cut off a corner (or two) too much?

Please let me know.

Odin.

[Maritimer]

Hi Odin,

I always enjoy reading your posts; there is something very personable in your writing.

One of the essential ingredients in Birdwatcher's recipe is a tiny bit of epsom salts. He says it is essential.

M

[Odin]

Yes I know. I decided to let it out. Just thinking out loud, my thinking went as follows. Yeast is a living organisme. It needs vits & mins (check), it needs proteins and oxygen to duplicate, grow healthily (check), in an aquatic environment (check), with enough food to metabolize on: sugar (check). PH they will normally correct themselves pretty quick. And I could have cooked the sugar with lemon to make them more easily fermentable. But it is not necesairy. The yeast will break up the sugars without any problems. And - as we say in Holland - why put effort and energy in something that the yeast does for you for free? Anyhow, boiling, etc. would have made the recipe more work, less easy.

Heading towards a disaster? Let's see!Right now the wine is fermenting. Slow pace, but it is only around 18 degrees C around whereI ferment. White with a slight hue of yellow/green. Hardly any cap on top (you know, that floating "Krausen"/foam).

Odin.

[Bushman]

You might do a google search for Mash Rookies noodle wash. Can't remember what kind of success he had but he was also trying to come up with a better neutral.

[Odin]

Yes Bushman, I remember that. The final conclusion that sticks in my mind is that the noodles needed lots of cooking to let go of their goodies. And - maybe my memorie flaws me - on a flute some taste still came over. Not sure I do MR right here, so an appoligy in advance if I don't!

Odin.

[Odin]

Okay, fermentation definately took off. Pretty fast at that. Still hardly any foam on top. The smell of the gasses coming of ... is not so great. Some "rotten eggs" (sulphur?) there?

Odin.

[bellybuster]

i think one of the keys to a neutral neutral would be ferment temps. keep them at the lower end of the chosen yeast's range. from my experience there are less flavours created in the lower ranges.
Your wash should create a flavourless result, only flavour adding ingredient is yeast.

I think in terms of flavour in = flavour out. For a neutral neutral you need to start with little to no flavour to end with the same. I would imagine a fairly flavourless cereal like special K would be a good choice.

Keep in mind I have yet to create a neutral so I am just thinking out loud. I'm having way too much fun playing with my pot still. my reflux is sitting lonely in the closet

[rad14701]

GNC Mega Men Sugar Wash

Pricy buggers but they make great neutral...

You're on the right track, Odin...

[Odin]

@Rad,

Thanks for joining Rad! Any idea what can cause the slight sulphuric smell? I remember it from Turbo's, but this recipe does not have any "Turbo" things in it. Your tread is interesting. "Prostate pills"? Hmmm ... well, they should help those yeasties piss out alcohol, I guess!

Just pills like my vits?

@Belly,

I think I agree. Temps are low btw.

Odin.

[bellybuster]

the one thing that has always had me wondering is the use of multivitamins etc. What are the fillers made of? Could that be the source of off smells?
I've had beers that smell like absolute crap during fermenting that ended up wonderful. I don't put allot of worry into the smell of my ferments.

[rad14701]

You could be getting the sulfur smell due to not enough nutrients... I tried to force a test wash into autolysis once and got sulfur smell...

[Odin]

Hmmm ... not sure. 50% of the daily needed amounts of vits&mins "feels" like enough. If I translate it to for instance All Bran quantities, I cannot imagine half a pill not to be enough. But when I read your post, Rad, on your MegaMan recipe, I see you even add three pills. Not sure if they are of the "100% of total amount needed per day" kinda type, but I added another half multivit just to be sure.

What comes to my mind is "iron". Not sure if I can explain why. And if it might be the cause. To start with the latter: one vit only containes 10 mg and water is pretty low on iron content. So it should not be a problem. But, maybe adding things up wrongly in my mind or memory ... I do seem to remember iron is bad for yeast. Ian Smiley writes about it. And I somehow connect that to "sulphuric", right or wrong I don't know.

"Sulphuric" and "stress on yeast" also comes to mind. But what is it that stresses out the yeast?

Or maybe Belly is right: even off tasting wines or beers can give good or great distilled spirits.

Let's find out. Suspect this to run dry in a week and a half. And clearing won't be a problem for sure. So little foam, so little stuff there to sink to the bottom.

Odin.

[Dnderhead]

from a beer forum,,,,
. Watch for high levels of iron, which can give a coin-like or metallic flavor or high levels of zinc, which is a haze inducer and can be toxic to yeast.

[Odin]

Thanks Dunder. Checked the Zinc. It is with 10 Mu gram (can't find the sign) a very small quantity. Just took another sniff. Sulphuric smell is much less now. Something nice shines thru.

Still bubbling strong.

Odin

[mindmap57]

I will be watching your progress, as I am also very interested in a very "clean" neutral, I love infusions.......and that is what got me started down this path.

[Odin]

Still bubbling away strong! And something has definately changed. The smell started of with a bad scent. The sulphuric smell then grew less. Right now it smells like a beautiful, young white wine. Very nice, very clean. If this smell is an indication, I am heading in the right direction.

Rad, I guess there may have been not enough vits&mins to start with. After adding another multivit, smell improved. And now it is just smelling great!

More updates in a day or two.

Odin.

[rad14701]

Yes, not enough nutrients would stress the yeast colony and that would be the source of the off smells...

What we need to determine is how much nutrients the yeast colony uses on a daily basis as opposed to a human being... And then we need to be able to predict how long the ferment will take... So it takes several iterations of refinement before we can come up with a generic amount of each vitamin and mineral... Better a bit too much than too little... And unless you add an iron pill most vitamins wouldn't contribute too much iron...

[ErnieV]

Interesting stuff, following with interest

[elektrosport]

For what it's worth.

Odin, I don't think you need to worry about the sulphoric smell. I've had wheat beers and lagers smell very farty when fermenting, and come out non-farty. Besides, it seems like your wash/beer is in a happy place now.


Cheers,
El Sporto (Just finished another crazy deadline and enjoying the last bottle of a 4 years old American Strong Ale and some white dog (semi-Odin cornflake/semi-all grain).

[Odin]

Yes! And another Q is like do we add lots of yeast with no air. Then the yeast would not reproduce. They would need more nutrients if they were reproducing. So does a smaller amount of yeast and more air make a difference? So many variables to play with. A basic recipe is needed. So much water, so many grams of dried baker's yeast, so much sugar, so many vits&mins.

My next batch will be the same as the first one, for comparisons sake. With one modification: more vits&mins to start with. So we can check for that sulphuric smell it started of with.

Odin.

[mindmap57]

Any updates? I'm getting closer to getting my still done and am very interested in this recipe.

[Odin]

Just home from a short vacation with the family. It is still fermenting. Slowly, but temps in the place where I ferment have fallen to below 16 degrees C. Nothing on top, nice slight white/green colour. I expect it to be ready to go in a day or two, three.

Odin.

[Prairiepiss]

The only time that I have ran into this smell problem. Was when I did the palm sugar experiments. I later came to the conclusion it was just how that particular sugar smelled when fermented. Because it also had some of the same smell before mixing with water. And even more after mixing.

I guess what I'm trying to say is. Even though that smell is mostly associated with yeast health problems. It's not always a sign of a problem. It could very well just be a smell present in the wash. That's just enhanced by the fermentation process. Does that make since?

I'm also not trying to say not to try to find out if the lack of or over abundance of nutrients caused it. Just that its another possibility.

[Odin]

The smell was just there in the beginning. After a day or two the smell went away. Now it smells ... delicious! If the smell I smell right now is a token ... this will be a great recipe for a neutral.

Maybe the sulphuric smell is just from extra ingredients in the vitamin pils? The stuff that make it go all bubly when added to water? Or maybe I should have cooked the yeast I used as a nutrient better? Another thought ... adding yeast to water and then boiling it to turn it into a nutrient ... might be not the best way. Before cooking / killing them, a lot of environmental stress is put into the equasion ... Maybe a bette approach is, if you use yeast as a nutrient, to get the water to a boil and then add the yeast.

Just thinking out loud.

Smell AND taste of this wine (because that's what it tastes like) are great. Think: white wine, young, almost grean, like in Portugese Vigno Verde. For references, read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinho_Verde" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Some more info on what might be a suitable vits&mins "bill":

For a 5 gallon wash I now think 2 Multi-Vits and one B-complex will be fine. And the boiled yeast off course.

In terms of v&m this would mean (per 5 gallons / 20 liters):
A: 1,600 mcg
B1: 3.3 mg
B2: 4.2 mg
B3: 48 mg
Pantothene-acid: 18 mg
B6: 4.2 mg
B12: 7,5 mcg
Folium-acid: 600 mcg
Biotine: 150 mcg
Choline: 2,5 mg
Inositol: 2,5 mg
C: 160 mg
D: 10 mcg
E: 24 mg
Chromium: 20 mcg
Iron: 20 mg
Mangane: 2 mg
Molybdene: 90 mcg
Selenium: 100 mcg
Zink: 20 mg

Well, that seems to do the trick V&M wize ...

Odin.

[Odin]

Now it has been pretty darn cold in my fermentation room. I just checked on my "new approach to making a neutral" and found it is still bubbling. Smells really nice. And since it is slow, mostly due to the low temps, I guess that isn't a bad thing. Lower fermentation temperatures will give lower amounts of unwanted elements. And that is what we are after.

The concise: slow, cool ferment that started out with some sulpher on the nose, but is now smelling like a nice white wine.

I will keep you all posted.

Odin.

[elektrosport]

Hi Odin,

I'm about to make your recipe, I've got a couple of questions though.

My beer software says 4.5 kg sugar and 25L says gives me alcohol of 9.5% when fermented out. That's good enough for me, but are you sure about the 14% - as I don't want stress my yeast (if my software is wrong)?

Also I haven't got the vitamins, I'm going to use DAP, you think there will be a difference flavour-wise, it's such a small amount?

Looking forward to this, and making some gin.


Cheers,
Elektrosport

[Odin]

I know you can get yeast up to 14% without stressing it. Just look at the Gerber and All Bran recipes. Maybe your beer calculator says so, because of grains being present? Soup getting to thick? Or because of ale yeast for cooler ferment (hope I got that one right, being not much of a beer brewer)? 13 to 14% should not give any problems. DAP ... no experience there. If it is vits&mins, it should be good. Maybe Rad could give his opinion. And if it is just vits&mins, please cook some yeast, to add proteins as well ...

Good luck! Hope your wine will ferment as nicely as mine does. And that it actually goes a bit quicker!

Odin.

[waylyn]

Hello Odin, it's been a while since we spoke getting on well with your gin recipe and my own version, and looking at this post I can't wait to see the outcome of your neutral would be good for gin me thinks

[Odin]

Me thinks so too, Waylyn!

Odin.

[Odin]

An update! I think we may have a winner here! Okay, she was slow. Fermentation almost took 5 weeks and still ... if I would put my ear to the bottle I fermented in ... I could hear some activity going on.

But I ran her anyway. First thing I noticed: nothing at the bottom. After de-gassing. After putting ice in to let things settle ... there was like nothing to settle. Never seen so little lees in my life.

Ran her too. Very nice & clean! Better than any turbo (and I am less against turbo's than many on HD), better than BW (that smells, tastes dead, "flat" to me).

But 5 weeks to ferment? Really? And then I forgot to add backset to a UJ I have been making for a few gens. Didn't start of like the rocket it usually is. And lightning struck me: PH.

So that's just what I did on gen II of "My new approach to making a neutral" and it did the job. I just added some backset (if you can call it that) from the first generation of this neutral recipe. PH lowered ... and she took off like a rocket. I expect this one to actually ferment dry in 10 day or less.

So, to add to the recipe: add some backset (10 to 20%). Or add like 2 grams of calcium sulphate per 10 liters wash on gen 1, just to get her going.

Odin.