How The Mash ABV Effects the Cuts

[ptech]

How does the ABV of the completed mash effect the cuts and the head temperature that cuts are made at.

In other words, if the completed mash has 14% ABV the heads might have to be cut off at 198F for example but if the completed mash has 6% ABV the heads might have to be cut off at a higher temperature.

Secondly, if the ABV of the completed mash was 14%, the heads cut might be from 178 to 198F whereas if the ABV of the completed mash was 6% the heads cut might be from 197 to 199F.

Did I butcher my question or does anyone know what I'm trying to learn here?

I just want to know the general effect that the ABV of the mash has on the cuts.
kind thanks,
Ptech

[Usge]

ptech, the abv of the mash (or whatever you put in your still) determines the proof and temp that it will boil/come off.

If you are on potstill...that pretty much translates straight over.

If you are on a reflux still, you can manipulate the column/reflux to extract higher proofs.

So, in that regard....heads/hearts/tails...are "relative"...to both the still charge as well as the amount of reflux you are running. I've had heads at 185 proof. I've had heads at 140 proof. It just depends.

Second: if you are fermenting at 14% you are most likely fermenting trash. And you certainly didn't get there with a "mash" made from grains.

Lastly, You can't determine cuts by math. Every still, recipe, etc..gonna be somewhat different. You need to use your senses. Just collect everything in small lots. Then figure it out after the fact. Smell it. Taste it. Rub it between your fingers. Look at it.

Heads...are mostly alc. But, they have a chemcial/acetone/fingernail polish bite to them that fades can sometimes smell of "butter" and sometimes fruity. When you can stick your nose in a jar and it doesn't sting to breath it....you found the middle. Now, if you are making whiskey...and plan on aging for a while...you'll want some of those late heads just before that middle. But, if you plan on drinking it soon...(ie., whitedog) you'll want to tighten that cut up more towards the middle.

After the dead middle...you'll note the change in flavor. The is "begins" the slide to tails. The flavor is more "whiskey" like..but gets stronger. Heads fade "out". Tails fade "in". This is where you find your corn/grain flavors. But, you don't want the oily, cloudy, stanky tails. It eventually gets stronger till it gets rank.

This is where you'll have to use your own taste. Everybody is different. Forget the numbers and trust me on this. Collect in 12-15 jars (or more). Leave everything in your still. Make a cut. If it doesn't work out..throw it all back in and run it again. Take aother shot it. Over time you'll learn what works for you and what doesnt. But, I will say if you are using 14% ferments...it's a bit over the top and more likely to produce "crap". Please try one of the proven recipe's first. There's a reason they so. If you need more abv for yield...then start with a double vol ferment, run half stripped as low-wines...and the other half mixed with that. This will increase your yield...without adding crap.

[rad14701]

This type of question gets asked quite often by novices and the answer is you can't go by temperature or %ABV of the wash, as mentioned... Too many variables... Do it the right way or not at all... It's all explained as part of the theories and fundamentals that we consider mandatory research...

[Kravenhed]

ptech, the abv of the mash (or whatever you put in your still) determines the proof and temp that it will boil/come off.

If you are on potstill...that pretty much translates straight over.

If you are on a reflux still, you can manipulate the column/reflux to extract higher proofs.

So, in that regard....heads/hearts/tails...are "relative"...to both the still charge as well as the amount of reflux you are running. I've had heads at 185 proof. I've had heads at 140 proof. It just depends.

Second: if you are fermenting at 14% you are most likely fermenting trash. And you certainly didn't get there with a "mash" made from grains.

Lastly, You can't determine cuts by math. Every still, recipe, etc..gonna be somewhat different. You need to use your senses. Just collect everything in small lots. Then figure it out after the fact. Smell it. Taste it. Rub it between your fingers. Look at it.

Heads...are mostly alc. But, they have a chemcial/acetone/fingernail polish bite to them that fades can sometimes smell of "butter" and sometimes fruity. When you can stick your nose in a jar and it doesn't sting to breath it....you found the middle. Now, if you are making whiskey...and plan on aging for a while...you'll want some of those late heads just before that middle. But, if you plan on drinking it soon...(ie., whitedog) you'll want to tighten that cut up more towards the middle.

After the dead middle...you'll note the change in flavor. The is "begins" the slide to tails. The flavor is more "whiskey" like..but gets stronger. Heads fade "out". Tails fade "in". This is where you find your corn/grain flavors. But, you don't want the oily, cloudy, stanky tails. It eventually gets stronger till it gets rank.

This is where you'll have to use your own taste. Everybody is different. Forget the numbers and trust me on this. Collect in 12-15 jars (or more). Leave everything in your still. Make a cut. If it doesn't work out..throw it all back in and run it again. Take aother shot it. Over time you'll learn what works for you and what doesnt. But, I will say if you are using 14% ferments...it's a bit over the top and more likely to produce "crap". Please try one of the proven recipe's first. There's a reason they so. If you need more abv for yield...then start with a double vol ferment, run half stripped as low-wines...and the other half mixed with that. This will increase your yield...without adding crap.

The best advice I seen so far..... you can't learn this from no book or the internet....gotta learn like we all did, failure is just a step closer to success. My Pepaw said, " aint no middle...... the heart is just low heads/ high tails that you think is the smoothest. Thanks for letting me comment.

[crossedrifles08]

Second: if you are fermenting at 14% you are most likely fermenting trash. And you certainly didn't get there with a "mash" made from grains.

I would like to know how you justify this statement. As I just did a barleywine at 16%, which is a common recipe in my area, and didn't have any problem getting there with nothing but grains. Some yeasts are not stressed as much at higher levels as baker's yeast. There are many that produce fine esters at higher ABVs. Now, while it is absolutely true that some yeasts make bad product at that ABV, there is nothing that says you cannot get a wort up to 14% using only grains. It's perfectly doable, and I've done it on a fairly regular basis for years. Now milling the 18-20lbs (For a 5gal batch that is) of grains needed to get there might be a chore... But it's doable.

[bellybuster]

here we go

[Usge]

Do you distill your barley wine?

Edit: Common all-grain mashes used around here for distillation are between 4-8%. And it is also a common that they are "corn" based...which is a different animal in regards to mashing. Although, we do have people who focus on other grains...they typically do not try and push their ferments to highest gravity for the same reason —regardless of whether it may be possible (as in the case of making barley wine) or not, or the yeast they use. None of the proven recipes here that are AG run over 8% or so that I am aware of. The only recipes that do are sugar based. And we typically recommend those be kept somewhere around the 10% or so range for the same reasons.

So, let me be a bit more clear....for distillation....we usually recommend not to push AG gravities that high (ie., 14%) because the potential for the things to go sideways when you distill it are much higher/greater —regardless of the yeast used. And with a starting gravity that high...around here that would typically mean that it was not made from "grain/corn", and would have been made from sugar or contain added sugar...which technically would not be an all-grain "mash" to start with. You'll find the term "mash" often gets used around here by folks loosely...to include sugar washes or grain/sugar wash...which is what I' was assuming from my previous experience here as mentor that ptech was talking about. (ie., not all-grain).

My apologies for being unclear on what I was trying to say.

Hope that makes it more clear.

[Dnderhead]

as what I know about barley wine it is the first running, that is no sparg. the sparg is used as a second beer or a liter beer. this by some is known as a party gale .so I guess you could use the first to distill and the sparg as a beer? i have a way I much prefer. but then if using corn/maze it does not sparg well.so most ferment corn on the grain.but I do not recommend doing so with other grains.

[skow69]

i have a way I much prefer. but then if using corn/maze it does not sparg well.so most ferment corn on the grain.but I do not recommend doing so with other grains.

Dndrhead, would you expand on this please? My AG experience is only 3 or 4 months long, but I am addicted. I have been trying to compare the results of sparging vs. fermenting-on-grain vs. distilling-on-grain, but I can only do a couple of runs a month, so it's gonna take a long time. I would love to hear your take.

Mods, do you want to split this off to its own thread?

Edit:

[Dnderhead]

with barley wine you don't use the sparg water,you use sparg water to make a "smaller" beer.
when I do the first mash ,just drain off what I can,,now i batch sparg,and use that water to make my next mash with.that way your beer wont be diluted .
Iv had problems "on the grain"fermenting grain with halls.

[skow69]

Gotcha. I have never had barley wine. I'll have to check it out.

Have fun, ptech.

[Dnderhead]

barley wine is a hi alcohol beer,they git there by( 1) a lot of grain ,as much as 20lb in a 5 gallon brew.
2) when making beer you usually drain off the wort (beer) then sparg or rinse the grains and add this water back to the wort (beer),but this is not done with barley wine ,instead you draw off the wart and use that for the barley wine, then rinse the grain and make a second weaker beer from that,
or even a third . so you end up with one strong beer and one or two weaker ones*.
*this weaker beer is the party beer or party "gale".

[crossedrifles08]

Dunder hit it on the head, no pun intended... And Usge, I wasn't trying to say its a common thing. But it is very, very possible to get a beer up to 14%, and minus hops could be distilled. And then it's arguable whether or not the yeast used would make for a decent drink or not at that ABV. But I've seen stuff taste ok from ABVs of that level. From my understanding, most of the "trash" that you speak of comes from the off flavors of the yeast at that level of ABV. Having said that, most barley wines, as well as wines, are 14% or higher. Brandy, generally considered a very good drink, is the distilled spirits of wine. So therefor, in my thinking anyways, just because a ferment is 14% or higher doesn't mean it is trash. Now what you said holds some truth, the tried and true recipes are lower than that. However, that still doesn't mean you can't get a good drink from something fermented higher than 8%. Once again, I wasn't trying to argue with you. But the way you worded that sentence would have some to believe that it cannot be done. I'll clarify. It can be done, but the results are questionable based on the types of ingredients used at best.

[Prairiepiss]

I wasn't trying to say its a common thing.

Common for wine and beer. Somewhat. But not for distilling. You have given many examples of high gravity beer and wine. Got any for distilling? Have you tried high gravity ferments and low gravity ferments distilled. So it could be compared? I have and there is a reason I stay at 8% or lower. Just saying.

[Usge]

crossedrifles....yes...I didn't mean to imply that it was impossible to make barley wine or wine or even mead. My comment was specifically directed to ptechs 14% mash...which I "know" he did not make from grains....because I've mentored ptech and because of all the other variables particular to distillation that I mentioned. And the "common" part was also about the fact that the more common grain used around here is "corn". Try mashing 20lbs of corn in 5 gals of water!!! So, for many reasons...I knew that ptech was talking about a "sugar" wash recipe and not an all-grain one and my statement was directed at that.

I tried to make that more clear in my 2nd attempt...but obviously failed in that as well

[Prairiepiss]

I tried to make that more clear in my 2nd attempt...but obviously failed in that as well

It was clear to those that think distilling over other forms of alcohol production. Well at least I knew what you were talkin bout.