heating element material

[Littlewater Still]

Hi,
This is my first post so I do not know if this should go under safety or here. I found a cheap and easy way (I am sure it is not new) to temp control the distillation process. The only thing is that it requires electric heating. I was wondering about what heating elements are safe to use. (submersible water tank heating kind). There are three main types of heating elements high density ones that are made from made of copper tubing with nickel and magnesium oxide plating; low density usualy made from made of copper tubing with magnesium oxide and nickel plating; and extra low density made from made from high grade Nickel Chromium Incoloy (it is a type of stainless). I am thinking that the only safe one is the extra low density one, but is this true? (FYI I do not have a nickle allergy)

I thought this combined with propane to get the still to temp would be very easy to use. Also and insulative blanket on the boiling pot would help maintain temp, and increase consistency of results.

[S-Cackalacky]

Hi,
This is my first post so I do not know if this should go under safety or here. I found a cheap and easy way (I am sure it is not new) to temp control the distillation process. The only thing is that it requires electric heating. I was wondering about what heating elements are safe to use. (submersible water tank heating kind). There are three main types of heating elements high density ones that are made from made of copper tubing with nickel and magnesium oxide plating; low density usualy made from made of copper tubing with magnesium oxide and nickel plating; and extra low density made from made from high grade Nickel Chromium Incoloy (it is a type of stainless). I am thinking that the only safe one is the extra low density one, but is this true? (FYI I do not have a nickle allergy)

I thought this combined with propane to get the still to temp would be very easy to use. Also and insulative blanket on the boiling pot would help maintain temp, and increase consistency of results.

Most people like to use ULWD (Ultra Low Watt Density) water heater elements. The reason they are preferred is to cut down on the chance of scorching. You would also want to use a power controller along with the element. There's lots of information here on the forum about controllers and heating elements. Its a lot of info to sort through, but you can get an idea about what element to use and how to install it into your boiler.

About installing an electric heating element and also using propane to heat. That doesn't sound very safe. Your electric element will likely be installed near the bottom of your boiler and the wiring and electrical connections will be on the outside of the boiler. I would think the propane flame would probably damage the electric element.

Just sayin',
S-C

[Prairiepiss]

I found a cheap and easy way (I am sure it is not new) to temp control the distillation process.

You can't control the temp. You need to control the amount of heat you put into the boiler. And it need to be adjustable.

If you have a look around HD here. You will find all kinds of info on electric boilers, elements, and controllers.

A 4500w or 5500w 220v element and a phase angle controller is the way to go. You wouldn't need the propane. Either of those will heat it up fast enough. And the phase angle controller gives you the heat control you need.

[Littlewater Still]

About installing an electric heating element and also using propane to heat. That doesn't sound very safe. Your electric element will likely be installed near the bottom of your boiler and the wiring and electrical connections will be on the outside of the boiler. I would think the propane flame would probably damage the electric element.

Just sayin',
S-C

The flame would not even be close to where any wires are running. The propane burner has a "pot skirt" to increase efficiency. It wastes so little heat that you can hold you hand where that wires are that run to the heating element. The other thing is that the wires do not need to plug in until the propane burner is off, and the still it at it's low end temp.

[Littlewater Still]

I found a cheap and easy way (I am sure it is not new) to temp control the distillation process.

You can't control the temp. You need to control the amount of heat you put into the boiler. And it need to be adjustable.

If you have a look around HD here. You will find all kinds of info on electric boilers, elements, and controllers.

What do you mean? That is how you control the temp. The amount of heat you put into it is how you control the temp. Remember temperature and heat are two different things,and one controls that other.

The way I am doing it involves a ss k type thermocouple, a controller and a heating element. It will run at what ever wattage I set my heater at (probably 100%, but that could scorch it). Once that k type thermocouple reaches it's set temp it cuts off the heater. Once it drops below a set temp it cuts back on.

With this set up I should be able to preform this simple fractional distillation.

PS: the controller I bought has many alarms (they can be hooked to a ssr) so I will know at what point in the distillation I am at. (this help me know when to start collecting what parts. With almost no babysitting)

[S-Cackalacky]

You sound pretty much intent on doing exactly what you want - no matter how misguided. I hope you live a long way from the general population.

Just sayin',
S-C

[wv_cooker]

Littlewater I will try to discourage you from your misguided ways one time. It would take weeks of educating you and the rest of the world on how a PID controller works and why it won't work for distilling ethanol. Just suffice it to say it seems to have been tried several times a day around here and has been proven at least hundreds of times not to work. The biggest reason is that the type of wash you ferment up controls the temperature of your boiler at any given time not the amount of heat you apply to get it there. There is so many things wrong with your plan I don't even really know where to start. Electric and propane, how are you going to get the PID to control the propane? There are some very nice control systems out there that work. They were designed by a lot of very smart folks in the electronics, engineering, Chemistry and so on industries. They are usually not available to the home hobby industry due to high cost and safety concerns. You mentioned not having to babysit your still, all I can say about that is you better! If you don't you may just be one of the ones that get their 15 seconds of fame in the news media. Please slow yourself down do some real studying and learn how to enjoy the hobby. Oh and by the way, watch out Rad is coming and I can't really blame him!

[Littlewater Still]

The pid won't control the propane...That is what I would do. The electrical won't be hooked up until it reaches my goal low temp, and at that point the electric will be hooked in. (also at that point the propane will be cut off)

Why won't a pid controller work for the electrical heating? The power running to my heater will already be controlled, and the pid will just turn on, and off the ssr. The ssr will close the circuit from the power supply to my heater.

Are you are saying that I can't control the temp, because the temp can't increase until the product that boils at that temp is completely evaporated. Then I already get that. Sorry if I come across the wrong way, but I don't quite get what you mean.
What in specific is wrong with my plan?

Having a system that turns off when the temp gets too high seems like a good idea. This way you won't collect the tails by accident, also it can alert you when you reach a specific part of the distillation. I could be competently wrong though.

sorry for upsetting y'all

(edit : I am thinking of using a power supply like this one to power the heating element " http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/81586.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow " .I also have a big Al heat sink to mount my phase angle controller)

[F6Hawk]

Having a system that turns off when the temp gets too high seems like a good idea.

What temp is too high? At what temp do tails start coming out? Can you explain your limits so we can understand?

[wv_cooker]

First, Thank You for not taking offense to us trying to help you. First the PID alogorithm is written to control a set temperature. Separating fractions in distilling, the temperatures changes as each fraction is removed. So if you set a certain temp on the PID when it is reached the PID will shut off your power reducing the power to your boiler stopping the boil at that temp and stopping the boiler temperature from climbing through each step of the fraction separation. The other issue with the PID alogorithm is that it involves time steps and there is no way to know how long it will take to remove each fraction. There is also the issue of the type of ferment that you make will also effect which fractions you have and how much of them are present. Automated systems are basically used to control take off and reflux set points, and the amount of heat applied to the boiler. The temps of the wash take care of themselves. Now this is a simple laymans understanding of PID's but it should show you that it will not work if you understand that fractions come off at different temps on their own. The best recommendation I can give is to choose either Electric or propane and if your choice is electric a simple phase angle controller works very well. If you don't have 220v capability's there are threads on using 2 - 110V elements to help speed things up. Hope this helps.

[Littlewater Still]

First, Thank You for not taking offense to us trying to help you. First the PID alogorithm is written to control a set temperature. Separating fractions in distilling, the temperatures changes as each fraction is removed. So if you set a certain temp on the PID when it is reached the PID will shut off your power reducing the power to your boiler stopping the boil at that temp and stopping the boiler temperature from climbing through each step of the fraction separation. The other issue with the PID alogorithm is that it involves time steps and there is no way to know how long it will take to remove each fraction. There is also the issue of the type of ferment that you make will also effect which fractions you have and how much of them are present. Automated systems are basically used to control take off and reflux set points, and the amount of heat applied to the boiler. The temps of the wash take care of themselves. Now this is a simple laymans understanding of PID's but it should show you that it will not work if you understand that fractions come off at different temps on their own. The best recommendation I can give is to choose either Electric or propane and if your choice is electric a simple phase angle controller works very well. If you don't have 220v capability's there are threads on using 2 - 110V elements to help speed things up. Hope this helps.

I see what you are saying. I can use the pid, but it won't add any benefits.

You can tell when the different fractions come over. Not by time, but by temp. The pid could however be hooked up to an alarm that sounds once it reaches a certain temp. This could let you know when the next fraction should be collected.

I decided to use a simple PSR-25 (or some substitute).

So back to my original question....will some heating elements leak or corrode? I know some metals don't belong in a still (lead,aluminum,mercury,silver ext)

[wv_cooker]

Most folks try to use the ultra low density elements for a little protection from accidental dry firing. But any will work. As stainless steel and copper are the only 2 recommended metals for our hobby I would stick with one of those 2 types.

Now I didn't see what type of still your using but if it is a reflux still of some type and since you seem to have already purchased the PID you could use it to track your head temp instead of a thermometer. The first thing you would do is turn off the alogorithm and put it in manual mode. Then if it had several steps you could set each one to sound an alarm at the temps, for fores, heads hearts and tails. just to give you a guide to start checking by smell, touch and feel to start learning to get your cuts right. If you have a pot still, find a friend who makes beer and sell him a good PID controller.

The PSR-25 is fine just make sure it is controlled by a potentiometer not switched off and on by the PID or you will have problems.

Hope this helps.

[bellybuster]

"You can tell when the different fractions come over. Not by time, but by temp. The pid could however be hooked up to an alarm that sounds once it reaches a certain temp. This could let you know when the next fraction should be collected."

This would be true "if" each different fraction came off completely by itself but they don't. They are mixed with water, flavour compound etc etc. therefor the temp such fractions come off will be different for each batch. The actual ABV of the wash itself comes in to play here as well If you were to run the "exact" same batch every time under exact same conditions, this could be measured but outside of a lab this can't be replicated at home. This is where cuts come in. Separating your alcohols by taste/feel/smell will give you a much better end product in the hobby level distilling world

[Littlewater Still]

Most folks try to use the ultra low density elements for a little protection from accidental dry firing. But any will work. As stainless steel and copper are the only 2 recommended metals for our hobby I would stick with one of those 2 types.

Now I didn't see what type of still your using but if it is a reflux still of some type and since you seem to have already purchased the PID you could use it to track your head temp instead of a thermometer. The first thing you would do is turn off the alogorithm and put it in manual mode. Then if it had several steps you could set each one to sound an alarm at the temps, for fores, heads hearts and tails. just to give you a guide to start checking by smell, touch and feel to start learning to get your cuts right. If you have a pot still, find a friend who makes beer and sell him a good PID controller.

The PSR-25 is fine just make sure it is controlled by a potentiometer not switched off and on by the PID or you will have problems.

Hope this helps.

Yes I will be running a column still. Yeah it will be controlled buy a pot.

Of coarse I will still have to use my senses to tell exactly when the fractions are separated. I have used this combined method before, and it has always worked out great. Using a thermometer (including in pot stills) gives far more consistent results. Also I have worked in a chemistry lab for quite a while, and you can use a variety of calculations to indicate at what point you are at in a fractional distillation.

[Prairiepiss]

What do you mean? That is how you control the temp. The amount of heat you put into it is how you control the temp. Remember temperature and heat are two different things,and one controls that other.

The way I am doing it involves a ss k type thermocouple, a controller and a heating element. It will run at what ever wattage I set my heater at (probably 100%, but that could scorch it). Once that k type thermocouple reaches it's set temp it cuts off the heater. Once it drops below a set temp it cuts back on.

With this set up I should be able to preform this simple fractional distillation.

PS: the controller I bought has many alarms (they can be hooked to a ssr) so I will know at what point in the distillation I am at. (this help me know when to start collecting what parts. With almost no babysitting)

What do I mean? Just what I said. You can not control the temp. The ABV of the boiler charge controls the temp. If the boiling point of the still change liquid is say 190 f. No mater how much heat you put into the boiler. It will never get over 190 f. The boiling point of water is 212f and alcohol is 173. Depending on the ABV of the liquid. The boiling point will be somewhere between those two numbers. And it will be changing as the alcohol is removed. So a PID is not going to help you. It's very simple.

If your temp sensor is in the boiler. You have it set for 173f it will never boil. And you will ever get any thing. If you set it at 200f it will continue to try to get it to 200f but it won't be able to. Because the boiling point will be lower then that. So it will be throwing as much heat at it as it can. Trying to get it up to temp. If you set it at 190 ish it will throw all it can at it till the ABV drops to correlate that temp. Then it will shut off. And stop the takeoff.

You want a steady constant amount of heat going into the boiler. To get the same amount of vapors from it. So you get a steady amount of take off. And temps will not do that. They will start low and steadily increase as the run progresses.

But you have already figured all that out. And will be able to make it work. So please document it. And show us how it can be done with a regular PID. I will be waiting.

Oh and there are some really good reads about temp control (or lack of) in the must read new distiller reading lounge.

[Prairiepiss]

Oh there is a lot more to it then what I posted above. But until you fully understand the theories of distilling. You won't get it. And you will be pulling your hair out trying to figure it all out.

Yes the process can be automated. But it will take more then one PID and one temp sensor to achieve it. With any satisfactory results.

[rad14701]

All these posts from a new member who doesn't understand theories and fundamentals and is all too eager to get started...

Theories and Fundamentals...!!!

Go forth and do what we consider mandatory research... The members here have been trying to nudge you in that direction... You can't build or run what you don't understand... Not effectively anyway...