New(?) Continuous Still Design

We don’t condone the use of Continuous Stripping stills as a method of running 24/7 as this is a commercial setup only .
Home distillers should never leave any still run unattended and Continuous strippers should not be operated for longer periods than a Batch stripping session would typically be run to minimise operator fatigue..

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JaCh
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New(?) Continuous Still Design

Post by JaCh »

After reading about the "Barney Column" I couldn't sleep for thinking and spent a couple hours the next evening improving and illustrating my idea's.
(I am currently not able to experiment with this myself due to lack of ability and time so this is theoretical for me.)
pactastill.gif
The principle of the still is to force the ascending vapor against the descending vapor overflowing from slants.
The slants are cooled slightly by the left liebigs to promote initial condensation and to cool any liquid removed.
All components within the column go straight through, the cooland is not in pipes, the walls are slants.
A temperature gradient is controlled by varying flow rate down through the still.
This can be done using the 2 right taps. (output pipes not shown for simplicity)

The wash is warmed before entry by the desired vapor output. (Also cooling vapor output)
The Cooling/Warming Fluid is used to further raise the wash temp before it is introduced in the column.
When introduced to the column as much as possible never reaches the boiler due to rising vapor heating it.
Sight glasses would be highly desirable to monitor reflux.

The left taps can be used to remove undesirables.
When at temps the bottom one would likely be mostly open to prevent overflow on final slant.
The other 2 could be used to take samples.

The idea is for it to be as compact as possible and have a small boiler size.

Any questions/thoughts/suggestions?

Also Is any of this new? Is it a good idea? Is anyone willing to experiment with it?
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Re: New(?) Continuous Still Design

Post by wv_cooker »

Continuous stills are generally viewed as commercial, probably not gonna get much interest here as these forums are geared more to the hobby level.
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Re: New(?) Continuous Still Design

Post by Prairiepiss »

I'm not really understanding how you expect this to work? And what takeoff is to be used for what. Not to mention a lot of smearing with all the collection plates. As much cooling as you have in that column. I'm not sure as to how much will heat the incoming wash.
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Re: New(?) Continuous Still Design

Post by Odin »

Continous stills are used as strippers in big commercial operations.

I like the diagram. Not sure I am getting all of it, but it is great to see you got some passion and are willing to share it.

Odin.
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Re: New(?) Continuous Still Design

Post by rad14701 »

And what would be the purpose of this overly complex and awkward to build contraption...??? It would only be useful for fuel or for stripping runs because you cannot make cuts with a continuous still... We know it can be hard to throttle back the creative juices at times but you need to pick your battles along those lines...

Written as the first reply but forgot to hit submit until hours later...
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Re: New(?) Continuous Still Design

Post by JaCh »

wv_cooker wrote:Continuous stills are generally viewed as commercial, probably not gonna get much interest here as these forums are geared more to the hobby level.
I see that if the column is efficient and effective a small boiler could be used and thus save space which may be beneficial to many hobbyists.
Prairiepiss wrote:what takeoff is to be used for what?
Only the bottom one is used the others are not essential. It is used to remove water and other undesirables that have a higher boiling point than ethanol.
The vapor out is the desired ethanol and the heads.
Prairiepiss wrote:Not to mention a lot of smearing with all the collection plates.
The current design removes only tails and does not remove heads, they would have to be removed separately. You have pointed out a design flaw I need to think of a solution to.
Prairiepiss wrote:As much cooling as you have in that column. I'm not sure as to how much will heat the incoming wash.
The cooling/warming fluid moves through very slowly, so should be at around 80-90 degrees C when it comes into indirect contact with the wash.
Odin wrote:I like the diagram. Not sure I am getting all of it, but it is great to see you got some passion and are willing to share it.
Thank you for the encouragement, if there are any parts of the diagram I haven't explained properly feel free to point them out and ill elaborate.
rad14701 wrote:And what would be the purpose of this overly complex and awkward to build contraption...???
The purpose is to make a compact and efficient still capable of producing high proof neutral spirits.
Please specify which parts would be awkward to build so I can make it easier.
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Re: New(?) Continuous Still Design

Post by Edwin Croissant »

JaCh, to answer your last questions, continuous distillation was patented by Cellier Blumenthal in 1813 and I think that none of your ideas are new. I do not think that this is a good design and I do not recommend anyone to build it. I understand that this is a rather disappointing start of my message. I am sorry for that and what I can do is walk you through your design and direct you to the right direction.

Starting with your wash you use the heat from your product to preheat the wash. Actually you can do much better then that, you can use your wash to condensate all of your vapor as well. This is one of the advantages of continuous distillation, you do not need any cooling water. In the book A Complete Treatise on the Art of Distillation published in 1830 a comparison is made between a discontinuous still and a continuous still on page 451. For the same quantity of wine distilled the discontinuous still consumed more then four times the amount of coal and it took twice the time. The continuous still did not use one drop of cooling water.

It seem to me that you are running your boiler dry. This is not a good idea as any solids will build up on the bottom of your boiler. In a continuous still your was will enter the top of the stripper, a column with at least 6 plates to strip the ethanol from the wash. The stripped wash, with the solids, leaves the boiler at the bottom.

The vapor form the stripper will enter the rectifier, a second column with 20 or more plates. The three plates in your design will not do the job. Not only do you need more plates, you also need a very good contact between the liquid and the vapor by forcing the vapor through the liquid. Baglioni tried in the same period as Blumenthal a double Archimedian screw in which the liquid flowed downwards and the vapor upwards with poor results as the vapor was forced over the liquid. (from A Short History of the Art of Distillation by R.J. Forbes, no link here, you got to buy this book)

One of the peculiarities of the some of the alcohols you want to separate is that their volatility compared to ethanol depends on the strength of the ethanol water mixture. Isoamyl alcohol, propanol and butanol are less volatile then ethanol at higher ABV's, so these alcohols are trapped in the rectifier column and must be removed with a side stream in the lower part of the column. I find it interesting to read that Barney Five write in his topic Simple, yet effective 2" plate column: Interesting notes: I took samples off the old Bok output at 5-10 minutes intervals, now a drain, and all were well below 20% ABV, and all were very oily and tasted like late tails. So oily my hands felt greasy..
I think that this is a good indication that fusel oils concentrate in the lower part of the column.

Besides the rectifier you need a third column to separate the more volatile components then ethanol.

Please note while you can't make cuts you can separate all the different alcohols. Google for “Bunker Stills” for a small continuous still for more information.

Some old but good books about about distilling that are worthwhile reading:

Power Alcohol published in 1922 and Distillation principles and processes also published in 1922.

I appreciate your passion. Keep studying!
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Re: New(?) Continuous Still Design

Post by Odin »

What I find interesting is ... can we design an easy to use, home distilling size, continuous still? As a sorta continuous stripper. Grain wash in, grain out at the bottom, together with refluxed waters. Higher abv (60, 70%) coming out higher up.

Not saying we should, just thinking - from a design perspective - if we could.

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Re: New(?) Continuous Still Design

Post by JaCh »

Edwin Croissant wrote:I think that none of your ideas are new.
Thank you for your detailed response, I understand the points you are making and I am aware that continuous stills are nothing new, I was just trying to design one I might be capable of building.
Edwin Croissant wrote:you can use your wash to condensate all of your vapor as well.
The idea of the wash being heated by the vapor out WAS so that the vapor could also be cooled, I didn't properly explain. (note the solid color below the wash liebig)
Edwin Croissant wrote:It seem to me that you are running your boiler dry
The boiler would initially be filled with water and when temp gradient is set up the wash would be gradually released into the still.
Edwin Croissant wrote:any solids will build up on the bottom of your boiler.
The purpose of the still is to produce nuetral spirits, I would use a sugar wash that had been racked so i would not expect a great deal of solid build up in my application.
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Re: New(?) Continuous Still Design

Post by Edwin Croissant »

JaCh, when I got interested in distilling I started with designing a still based on my very incomplete knowledge. After a week I shot some holes in the design and started all over. I never had the courage like you to ask: would this work? It very effective to learn from other peoples mistakes so I started to study the history of distilling from the beginning of the 19th century. I recommend you do the same, it is a fascinating history.
Odin wrote:What I find interesting is ... can we design an easy to use, home distilling size, continuous still? As a sorta continuous stripper. Grain wash in, grain out at the bottom, together with refluxed waters. Higher abv (60, 70%) coming out higher up.
Bunker Stills already did that, a 750 Watt still producing 0,75 l/hour azeotrope. The engineering challenge is to design it into something that can be made by the average Joe. If you use a quarter of the output as fuel (I think that this will be considered as blasphemy here) it can be self powered as well :D The only difficult thing a see is a constant feed. Reciprocal pumps are expensive but I think a small pump with a volume counter and a simple control loop can do the job (I did that once with a proportional valve and a volume counter, worked like a charm).

For stripping look at the parent site. For a stripper you would need a 2 liter boiler, a meter of pipe filled with rachid rings an a boka on top. If you use your wash to condensate the vapor you can probably do without cooling water. I think these systems are made commercially. Fouling could be a problem, filtration of the might be wash necessary. Some Russians are using their still with a modification to do a fast continuous stripping run.

Regards,

Edwin
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Re: New(?) Continuous Still Design

Post by Maritimer »

A while ago I invented a new type of continuous stripper, onto which you could put a reflux column. http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 1#p7025955

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Re: New(?) Continuous Still Design

Post by rad14701 »

Before this topic continues further I would like the OP to explain how he intends to make cuts to remove the Foreshots, Heads, and Tails... If continuous stills were an effective option for hobby scale home distillation you'd be seeing a lot of them so that has to say something for the impracticality of them... While there may be an immense amount of passion with regard to building one we are here to help eliminate wasting time and being disappointed over futile attempts... If you truly know the theories and fundamentals of continuous distillation you wouldn't be here seeking advice and approval... Your self-doubts are well justified and I'm getting the feeling you just want someone to give the nod so you can start building... I, for one, will remain a naysayer but if you need to prove to yourself that continuous stills are impractical at the hobby level then do what you gotta do... Heck, people doubted that the earth was round for centuries after it was proven so, too...
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Re: New(?) Continuous Still Design

Post by JaCh »

Edwin Croissant wrote:Bunker Stills already did that
From what I can see their still is tall, my aim is to produce something much smaller than usual.
rad14701 wrote:I would like the OP to explain how he intends to make cuts to remove the Foreshots, Heads, and Tails
With the current design I would have to boil them off in batches, I don't think this is a very good solution so am currently working on incorporating their removal into the system.
Suggestions are welcome. :)
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Re: New(?) Continuous Still Design

Post by rad14701 »

My suggestion would be to scrap the continuous still idea, if you hadn't already deduced that...

Perhaps you should take some time to explain and confirm your preconceived theories... You can't make cuts, period, no matter how many times your run the product back through the still... I'm getting a distinct feeling that your understanding of the basic distillation fundamentals is flawed... Feel free to prove me wrong, however...
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Re: New(?) Continuous Still Design

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rad14701 wrote:I'm getting a distinct feeling that your understanding of the basic distillation fundamentals is flawed
I'm sorry if I come across as a bit arrogant but I fully understand the basic fundamentals of distilling.
I'm just not necessarily the best at explaining my ideas. :) Getting them down in a 2D drawing is hard enough, fully explaining said drawing is harder still.
The design in it's current state only remove less volatile substances than ethanol (tails). Further process would be required. ie. putting in pot still and removing heads (when you get the good stuff coming off STOP and keep boiler contents)
I'm currently still working on removing more volatile than ethanol substances (heads) as part of the continuous system.
Last edited by JaCh on Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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New(?) Continuous Still Design

Post by squeezins »

Give it up . You are only going to get help here if you build the exact same thing as everyone else. Don't be afraid to think outside the box but don't be disappointed if you don't get the results you were looking for. Learn from each experience and move forward.
Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.
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Re: New(?) Continuous Still Design

Post by Edwin Croissant »

JaCh wrote:
Edwin Croissant wrote:Bunker Stills already did that
From what I can see their still is tall, my aim is to produce something much smaller than usual.
You can mount the three columns next to each other like the Coffey still, you will need a small pump to transfer the condensate from the rectifier to the top of the stripper. I haven't found a more simple and effective design then a straight pipe filled with SPP or lava rock. If you find a better solution please let me know.

Thinking outside the box :D [td][attachment=1]Guillaume's inclined column.jpg[/attachment][/td][td]Mount 4 Guillaume's inclined columns in a Penrose stair configuration and you have an infinite amount of plates. Stack three of these on top of each other (stripper, rectifier and demethylyser with a boiler below and a condensor on top and you end up with a small square box as still :D[/td][td][attachment=0]penrose_stair_by_r_boisard-d417bgk.jpg[/attachment][/td]
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Re: New(?) Continuous Still Design

Post by rad14701 »

JaCh wrote:
rad14701 wrote:I'm getting a distinct feeling that your understanding of the basic distillation fundamentals is flawed
I'm sorry if I come across as a bit arrogant but I fully understand the basic fundamentals of distilling.
I'm just not necessarily the best at explaining my ideas. :) Getting them down in a 2D drawing is hard enough, fully explaining said drawing is harder still.
The design in it's current state only remove less volatile substances than ethanol (tails). Further process would be required. ie. putting in pot still and removing heads (when you get the good stuff coming off STOP and keep boiler contents)
I'm currently still working on removing more volatile than ethanol substances (heads) as part of the continuous system.
Please explain how you intend to separate the tails during a continuous distillation run as well as how you feel this reduces overall labor and time to distill clean potable spirits... With a three plated still, no less (from memory)... Sure, there may be ways to run a continuous still that has enough plates and then remove components at specific plate levels, but this will end up being larger than hobby scale in the long run and would require more effort than your average artisan distiller would ever want to invest into the effort considering how easy other methods are to achieve the same result... More plates, more parts, more build time, more modifications, more testing, more acts of futility, and the list goes on...

Trust me, I have researched and mulled all of the possibilities over the years and done some preliminary experiments, which I won't get into here, and truth be told the only worthwhile purpose for continuous distillation at the hobby level is for stripping, and even that feels like a waste of time in my honest opinion... But suit yourself... Build and test whatever you want and let us know if you feel that it is worthwhile for you... You sure don't like heeding logic from those you ask for help...

If it was that easy we'd all be doing it... :eugeek:
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