Using malts in place of yeast

[skow69]

To all the posters on this page, almost: You guys are really putting in the effort to help this guy. That is good to see on this board. It hasn't always been that way. Kudos.

Here's to a kinder and gentler HD.
skow

[MitchyBourbon]

To all the posters on this page, almost: You guys are really putting in the effort to help this guy. That is good to see on this board. It hasn't always been that way. Kudos.

Here's to a kinder and gentler HD.
skow

good on you for pointin that out. Skol skow69.

[moosemilk]

Well, you came back. Good for you. You seem to want to learn a bit, and the others have explained the answers about malt and yeast. And you've been told about the temps for your corn being so low. Also, if you have no malt (malted grains) and no enzymes, there really is no point in cooking it all up and adding in sugar to get your alcohol. You could do it without cooking for something along the lines of a UJSSM style, found here:

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 14&t=50167

Now you can use different grains to get a bit of different flavor, but stick to the grain bill for weights. So for a 5 gallon wash you are going to use about 7lbs corn and 7lbs sugar. If you want to change it up a bit, try 5lbs corn, 2lbs wheat, or 4lbs corn, 3lbs wheat. Or 3lbs corn, 3lbs wheat, 1lb rye. Get the idea so far? And of course, the sugar remains the same 7lbs. For first time, i'd say stick with the corn only. Then you can play around after and see what each grain contributes for flavor.

Another that is the same is the Sweetfeed recipe found Here:

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 14&t=14586

The only reason any hot water is used is to help dissolve the molasses. Some may argue that hot water helps release flavor from the grain. I've tried it both ways with UJSSM, and haven't noticed enough difference to bother.

Now, back to the corn. If you want to do a recipe without using sugar, this is a little more complicated, but not all hard if you do the required reading. Yup. More reading. But to touch a bit on it and others can add more because I am learning every day still and am by far not an expert. When you work with corn, it is a bugger to get it to cook and release the starches from the grain and gelatinize. But you want to do this so that the ENZYMES (found in MALTED GRAINS or often in Liquid extract forms) can break down the starches into simple sugar so that the YEAST can eat that up and piss out ethanol (and some other crap when they aren't happy) and fart carbon dioxide. Now, back to cooking that corn. I say it's a bugger because to really get all those starches out you gotta cook the hell out of it. There are some no boil methods and such, but personally, i've found that step cooking (starting at lower temps, and stepping up stopping and giving a rest along the way at other temps until you get it to your final temp) works the best. And i have to give credit to BigR since it's his method I use most. But basically, you need to cook the hell out of corn at 200F for several hours to get the starches released and have it gelatinize nicely.

Now for the malts. Malts have enzymes much like your saliva does. Take a plain saltine cracker, chew it, and leave it in your mouth without swallowing for a few minutes (kinda gross sounding, but try it). You will notice that cracker starts to taste sweet. This is due to the enzymes in your saliva converting starches to sugar. Now you don't want to go spitting in your mash (or do you? . . . i don't anyways). So we have malted grains or enzyme extracts and such. Most of them don't like very high temperatures, and work best at given temps (and pH but we'll not talk about that now). So you have to cool that corn that's had the hell boiled out of it down to 148F (ideal), or a little higher (because adding malted grains will bring temp down a few degrees since they are probably at ambient temp). The enzymes in the malted grain then go to work on the starches that you released from the corn (just like the enzymes in the soda cracker in your mouth goop experiment). They start breaking down those starch chains into simple sugars. This process can take awhile to fully break them down (provided you have enough enzymes . . . but again, as with pH won't touch on that at this time), often for hours (leave mine overnight sometimes) and keeping it as close to 148F as possible during this time. If there is no wild yeast present, or it was somehow killed off along with any other biological nasties, you won't have any type of fermentation. But according to old timers, you should, because there is malt, so why not? NO YEAST.

So now the yeast. We cool our mash down after we have made sure all starches are converted (with an iodine test), check our SG to see our potential alcohol, and add the yeast at whatever temp the type you are using is happiest at. Let them munch away for a few days until there is no sugar left and there ya have it.

Now you have a good explanation of things, or at least the simplest way i can put things without going to far into it, and back on what you've been explained as well. All i request in return is you do some research and reading on your own, even if it's a PITA. And over in your welcome center post, tell us a little more detail about your still. What size tubing, how bit of a thumper and what it's made from, what is your heat source, etc. Details Details Details!

Oh, scrap the therm. At least for now. You probably won't get any product until you hit around 198-200 anyways, and rather than freak yourself out wondering why and shutting down, you can just worry about being safe instead. Best of luck.

How's that for kinder and gentler, Skow? LOL

[corene1]

WOW!!!! That was impressive, to say the least. Any ways since you just posted that I will just add a picture of a chart I use . It shows the comparative boiling temp related to ABV of the wash.
Remember water boils at 212 and alcohol at 178. The percentage of alcohol in the wash will determine the boiling temperature due to the dilution of the two. Think of it like radiator fluid. You add it to your water to increase the boiling temp. As a combined solution the boiling point is raised same with alcohol except the boiling point is lowered. Remember it is a combined solution of the two components. The higher the ABV the lower the boiling point, The lower the ABV the higher the boiling point. until it getas back to pure water and the boiling point is 212. The temp and heat requirements will change during the run using a pot still . That is why everyone will tell you to run it by watching the output stream not the thermometer.

EDIT. It has been mentioned to me that this is at sea level and altitude will change the information slightly. But the principal is still the same. ABV will affect the boiling temperature of the water.

[T-Pee]

jmashspirits14:

Try Tapatalk. This forum supports it. I don't use it but it might help you navigate this forum.

tp (jumping on the help-the-newb wagon)

[skow69]

Do you guys realize you could be indicted for manslaughter when Rad reads this and has a heart attack?

[T-Pee]

We still need him for pithy counterpoint.

tp

[W Pappy]

I ain't seen anyone get chewed up so hard on here, and then helped out so much fella you better go play the lotto!

[moosemilk]

Do you guys realize you could be indicted for manslaughter when Rad reads this and has a heart attack?

Hopefully he realizes it's only the Christmas spirit. I'm sure he has seen me tell off a few asking for spoon feeding.

And now my disclaimer: the reason I did that was to show how much there really is too it, and provided links showing the answers are, in fact, already here. And showing that his question is more than just a simple one line answer, which we don't really have time for.

[dirtymax731]

To OP I search off my phone mostly. Don't use the site's search or tapatalk. Go onto your browser type your question then type "site:homedistiller.org" after into Google search. You'll get all the answers you'd want.

[ShineRunnah]

Glad to see you're back, and hopefully ready to put forth the effort needed to be successful in this hobby.

I've been through other forums, and only joined here recently after spending a few days browsing the info here. My opinion, the members and info here are superior to the majority of that found almost anywhere else on the internet. I had been distilling for several years before coming here, and I still read all the required reading. In the process, I learned the proper answers/techniques for some pretty basic stuff that I had originally learned incorrectly elsewhere, along with a lot of other really good info that either wasn't found or was poorly explained elsewhere.

Good luck, and don't be put off by the hazing. The members here take this very seriously and most expect you to do the same if you expect to be provided answers and help. You've come back ,and that's a good move and shows you really want to learn. Spend some time researching (once you figure out a solution with your phone) and you'll be very glad you found this place.

Good luck, look forward to seeing you do well!

[Tokoroa_Shiner]

+1 on Tapatalk. It's all I use. Pretty darn easy and fool proof.

[shadylane]

To all the posters on this page, almost: You guys are really putting in the effort to help this guy. That is good to see on this board. It hasn't always been that way. Kudos.

Here's to a kinder and gentler HD.
skow

Some times a little bit of drama is good.
It shakes the tree of knowledge and bits of good information falls out.

[Usge]

It absolutely helps to have the correct information to start out with! But, then, the rest of it is up to you. Not only to avail yourself of what's here (and openly shared), but to practice. While a lot of this info may seem a bit overwhelming at first. The more you "practice" it, the more it will make sense. The practice reinforces the reading/learning and over time, will deepen your understanding and capabilities. I think the largest fault..is to be in too much of a hurry. It's not a race. Take your time, observe, don't get frustrated that there is sooo much to learn. Just take it a step at a time...but most importantly...."practice" and do so safely.

[rad14701]

I think it's been proven that the OP came in with a poor attitude and far less knowledge than he thought he brought to the table... The malt versus yeast issue... The boiling point issue... Glad Corene1 posted the chart as it helps explain why the OP's thought process on temperatures was flawed... We don't work with ideal solutions... And as for the forums being hard to navigate, that's just what happens when you get to glean the experience of hundreds if not thousands of active members rather than a single author... There's more than one answer to many questions... If it's a dumbphone thing (there's no such thing as a smart phone) then use a better tool for the job, a computer...

To the OP, dig and and learn... Overwhelming as these forums may appear at first, there's no excuse for remaining ignorant to the world of home distillation if you put forth adequate effort... Don't make me have to come after you with a switch...

[shadylane]

Moonshiners is playing in the background as I'm posting.
Jim Tom is talking about using corn malt instead of yeast.
rad, you need to bitch slap the entire production crew of that show.
Starting a the top and working down until your arm gets tired.
When you need a rest just holler. Help would be easy to find.

[MichiganCornhusker]

Help would be easy to find.

Help is easy to find. It's all here.

[jmashspirits14]

I didn't know where to ask this so I came back here to ask it. I been making corn malt for several months now and maybe never noticed or maybe it didnt happen but thus last batch of corn malt is generating heat as it dries. I noticed it when I picked the bowl up to stir it and the bottom is soft and warm. When I was making malt over winter perhaps I just didn't notice this due to using the heat from the furnace to dry my malt. It dried so fast either it didn't have time to generate heat or it didnt do it. I dont know, but I know now. I thought maybe it was the metal fork reacting with the enzymes or something but I took the fork out last night and it made no difference. Its warm enough that when I move the bowl the stand is warm where the bowl was sitting. Maybe this is just the norm when enzymes convert starch to sugar? I hope there's not something going on that will render my malt useless. Any insight would be helpful. I haven't found anything in the site over this topic.

[Usge]

Yes...the corn malt will generate heat from the process as it develops. And this is what can cause mold when it is not turned enough, and rinsed etc. or it's stacked to high and left to sit too long.

[jmashspirits14]

Aye Aye Captain! I turn it several times a day. Just wanted to make sure its natural.