PID Controller

[NZChris]

What does each control, and how?

[Carolinadistillin]

Boiler PID - I have a double boiler with a 2K heater element mounted in the outer water jacket. The thermocouple controlling the PID extends into the mash located in the inner tank. The PID controls the heater element. This PID simply keeps the mash water from boiling once the alcohol has been extracted. I usually set it to 205f.

Column PID - This PID controls the temp at the top of my column. The thermocouple is located above a coil heat exchanger located inside the top of the column. It controls a water pump that pulses cold water as required to maintain the programmed temperature. I like to make whiskey so I usually set it to 173f to extract 95% ABV foreshots and then to 189f to extract 75% ABV. The alcohol collected as the temp rises between 173f and 189f is collected as the heads. Once the alcohol is extracted, the column is no longer able to maintain it's temperature just like any other column still. I also use 2 alarms on this PID. One to control cooling fans mounted to radiator coolers used to cool the condenser and column heat exchanger exhaust water and the second is to sound an "alcohol is immanent" buzzer to get my attention when the top of the column temp rises above 150f.

Condenser PID - This PID regulates to the condenser water flow. The thermocouple is located on the upper hot end of the condenser water jacket and the PID controls a pump that pulses water to keep the condenser at a set temperature. I did this because I have an electric boiler and a closed cooling system. I did not want to cool my condenser continuously for 2 hours while my boiler heats up and I did not want my cooling water radiators to effectively warm up my cooling water to room temperature before they were needed. The temp gap on the condenser PID in the picture is due to a previous configuration I was using where I let the condenser pump run for 10 seconds each time it was triggered. I have since changed it so that it pulses as need and maintains 70f +/- 1f.

I think that's it.

[NZChris]

Boiler PID - I have a double boiler with a 2K heater element mounted in the outer water jacket. The thermocouple controlling the PID extends into the mash located in the inner tank. The PID controls the heater element. This PID simply keeps the mash water from boiling once the alcohol has been extracted. I usually set it to 205f.

205F is very low unless you are distilling somewhere over 3000'. What is the %abv in your backset?

[Carolinadistillin]

Actually, I haven't checked the %ABV of my backset. I know based on rough alcohol percentages of my starting fermented mash and finished spirits that there isn't much alcohol left in my backset; e.g, 9 or 10% alcohol in my mash converts to about 8 or 9% total alcohol collected. I have been really happy with the results of my runs so I just haven't taken much time to analyze it. I don't have any issues with running hotter, just didn't see a point in going all the way to 212f. I hope I haven't been wasting any of the precious stuff.

[NZChris]

At sea level, a wash boiling at 205F still has about 5% abv in it.

[PhatFil]

if you like pids how about a dozen or more virtual pids in a fully programmable box with an stc1000 form factor with wifi logging and control
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 83&t=64576

[skow69]

I don't get it. If you have to hook up a probe that doesn't do anything, and then run the PID in manual mode, where is the advantage? As for using it to control the warm up, just turn the power up all the way. All the PID can do is slow you down.

[Badmotivator]

I don't get it. If you have to hook up a probe that doesn't do anything, and then run the PID in manual mode, where is the advantage? As for using it to control the warm up, just turn the power up all the way. All the PID can do is slow you down.

Word. I've been around here long enough to have seen lots of posts like "I want to set up a PID, wouldn't that be cool?" and zero posts about "I did set up a PID and here's why I recommend it."

There oughta be a sticky ("PID? WTF?") or something.

[TxBrewing]

and in case you forgot:

The world is flat and the sun revolves around it...

Do you guys give people that still use wood a hard time too? I mean there is no, none, zero, knobs on a log.....

TXB

[Brutal]

@Carolinadistillin man that sounds like a cool set up. If I was running a large still at a distillery I think I would do the same thing. On my keg still it seems excessive but I bet it was fun to set up and tune. Do you have a thread that shows it?

[Pikey]

I don't get it. If you have to hook up a probe that doesn't do anything, and then run the PID in manual mode, where is the advantage? As for using it to control the warm up, just turn the power up all the way. All the PID can do is slow you down.

Word. I've been around here long enough to have seen lots of posts like "I want to set up a PID, wouldn't that be cool?" and zero posts about "I did set up a PID and here's why I recommend it."

There oughta be a sticky ("PID? WTF?") or something.

Ok Bm - here's one !

When I first started I learned about ethanol and 78.something degrees - so I acquired a cheap chinese thermostat and set my head temp at 80 or thereabouts. This is NOT a PID - just a simple thermostat but performed a similar if slightly less elegant function.

Soon realising that I wasn't getting any real output, I had to turn the head temp up to switch off at 86 and on again at 82 as I remember. - Then I'd get some results. I'd get flow from 82 - 86 degrees then it would go dead for a minute or so while the column cooled and then repeat. (My runs took a long time but who cares on your first couple ? )

Next step was to try a power controller to avoid the excessive waiting times and I failed when using a cooker switch because they are binary ! SO agian a trip to China produced a 10 kw triac based power controller for a few pounds (After I burned out a 5kw one).

By putting the power cantroller in series with the thermostat and truning the power down, I managed to get to the stage where I was getting a pretty constant flow until the head temp crepr to 86 - then back to on /off. After a few runs I tried switching the thermostat upper limits UP and found I was getting LITRES of extra "product".

Now I have the thermostat strapped to the outside of my boiler to give an indication of boiler temperature and a meat thermo stuck through a cork to measure head temp.

I d not try to control the head temp at all - Just be aware that when it gets to 100 or so - It's about ime to call it a day.

I do not regret the experience and I would encourage those who are "believers" to "JFDI" - "Just F...... Do It" - what's to lose by giving it a go ?

AS to adavntages - Most definitely it has advantages :-

a) It gives a better understanding of what is really happening.
b) I can use my boiler body to do an AG cook and maintain temps accurately when malting up the starch.
c) I can use my boiler body as a "Sous Vide" cooker should I want to.
d) I can use the control system to control a garden propagator.
e) I can use it to hatch eggs in an incubator if I want.

[Edit - f) I can say that with the temp restrictions i was definitely getting a slightly higher proof - at teh expense of some flavour of course ]

[Badmotivator]

AS to adavntages - Most definitely it has advantages :-

Well, cool. It's nice to hear that you're happy you did it. After all, that's what's important. I will back off of my position that PIDs are of doubtful value. I will say that none of your a-f mean anything to me, but my inability to enjoy those points are irrelevant. You dig it, so it's gold. Carry on.

[rad14701]

Pikey, it sounds to me like you didn't understand the theories and fundamentals and just had to prove to yourself through repeated failures that you can't control the temperature within the boiler... While that may have been entertaining for you I highly doubt that every other novice wants to repeat the same failures you did and, instead, would choose to believe the theories and fundamentals... We've had enough novices come here and learn the hard way... Our goal is to save novices that painful learning curve because it serves no real purpose in the grand scheme of things... After all, we don't keep repeating proven facts for nothing yet the sad part is that, unfortunately, we do have to keep repeating because folks don't read until the understand... Haste makes waste in more ways than one, as you have proven...

[still_stirrin]

Most definitely it has advantages :-
a) It gives a better understanding of what is really happening.

Really. Do you really understand what is happening to your wash when distilling?

b) I can use my boiler body to do an AG cook and maintain temps accurately when malting up the starch.
c) I can use my boiler body as a "Sous Vide" cooker should I want to.

Of course...these are mashing/brewing processes and otherwise, temperature controlled processes. Much different than the boiling of an alcohol/water mixture.

d) I can use the control system to control a garden propagator.

I don't get the connection, or relavence here.

e) I can use it to hatch eggs in an incubator if I want.

An STC-1000 would do this for you...less costly and every bit as effective. Also, controlling the temperature of your (heated/cooled) fermenters.

(Edit - f) I can say that with the temp restrictions i was definitely getting a slightly higher proof - at teh expense of some flavour of course ]

Again, I still don't think you understand the distillation process. Your comment here is confused and certainly confusing.

[Pikey]

Ah boyz - I guess our senses of humour do not mesh !

here's an exmple of what I mean :-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtNsy7mI8V4

If twelve minutes is beyond your attention span - start at minute 5

xxx

[skow69]

Are you saying that whole post about thermostats and power controllers was a joke?

[NZChris]

Are you saying that whole post about thermostats and power controllers was a joke?

I thought it was obviously 'tongue in cheek', plus, with a moral to the story.

[skow69]

Fair enough. I have also posted something that I thought was funny and had it misinterpreted. That's why I asked.

[Pikey]

Are you saying that whole post about thermostats and power controllers was a joke?

I thought it was obviously 'tongue in cheek', plus, with a moral to the story.

No skow - not a joke as such, It was meant as a light hearted description of my investigations at the beginning of this journey, when as so many think, I thought that by holding temp just above boil point for ethanol, I could separate the ethanol gas from the water in a logical and trouble free manner.

The hope was that by reading my adventures, those with the same belief may be convinced far better than merely being told "You don't understand " and "Read a lot more " as seems to be so often the case.

At the end of the day - if they're not convinced by an account of my experience then let them do it and find out for themselves. We are here as a community for mutual support and advice in sharing an adventure and each participant's experience is up to them to fashion. It is not up to us to insist that they do everything "Our way".

"He who never made a mistake, Never made anything !"

The second part of my little post was to "damn (the process ) with faint praise..." supposedly derived from Hamlet's last soliloquy although I think the process may have been explored prior in Niccolai Machiavelli's "The Prince"

In any case, I felt the irony was pretty much "in your face" and it was a disappointment that some seem to have chosen to take it verbatim.

Hence my link to Harding's "A Limey in New York" where he "lost his cherry - on the sidewalk " A really humorous exploration of "Two Nations Divided by a common language" - although it is a few decades old now, was penned before the current puritanical drive for political correctness and may offend some !

[NZChris]

and in case you forgot:

The world is flat and the sun revolves around it...

Do you guys give people that still use wood a hard time too? I mean there is no, none, zero, knobs on a log.....

TXB

This is the post I don't get. What did you mean, TxBrewing?

[TxBrewing]

I need to apologize for that post. In the end it comes down to me acting like a 10 year kid.

There was much more going on at that time and it boiled over in that post. I am a huge supporter of open discussion, dialogue, and even disagreement.

That post helped none of them

TXB


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[Mikey-moo]

Do you guys give people that still use wood a hard time too? I mean there is no, none, zero, knobs on a log....

Could not be more the reverse... wood is an excellent power source for distilling

Need more power? Just add more wood.
Need less power? Take some wood away.

It's all good when you've got wood