Legalizing Hobby Distilling in the US

[Jasper]

I have now contacted them. Thank you for the suggestion!

[stillin]

Joined HDA this morning Rick. Thanks for yours and everyone else's hard work. Hope others do the same.

[Brewhaus]

Thank you for the support, stillin.

[goinbroke2]

Wow, go away a couple days and all heck breaks loose! Way to go Rick!

I'll see if I can send a link of the story to the local paper here, maybe they'll run it as a "look what's going on in the States".
This area is quite left wing/socialist though so they might not run it, the news here is extremely biased.

Very impressed, keep up the great work and thanks, from a person who will benefit in the future from this.

[MoonBreath]

First of all, I have to say that I got goose bumps while reading these last few pages of posts!
I applaud Anyone for speaking up for themselves, much less everyone else ..
Thank You ..I myself am thinking about joining HDA ..Most of us are probably on some kind of 'list' anyway ..
Election time is coming ..I think it may be the time to start figuring out who is on board and who isn't ...And make a list ...
I sure hope this takes off in a good, positive way!

[tcowdrey]

Thanks Moonbreath. We are getting there and appreciate your comments and hope that you will join our association. Tom

[RandyMarshCT]

Thanks goinbroke2! As soon as we get this legalized in the US, we're coming for Canada!

[Snuffy-ga]

I knew it wasnt over. Glad to see the many letters that I sent to legislators hasnt been for nothing. I was feeling like I was whizzing into the wind, and maybe I am but at least it isnt blowing back on me. I am looking into a media story for the area in which I live. I just need a little time to get it all together. I write a pretty fair piece but still feel a bit reserved about saying "Hey look what I'm doing!"

[tcowdrey]

Dan,
I am sorry I am so late responding to your email dated 4/14. I simply missed it. I think most of your questions have been answered by others, however you addressed the questions to me and I have an obligation to respond. The still size is and has been a big deal among hobbyists and was discussed at great length when our proposal was being written. Not just the kettle, but the tower as well. I have seen 4" towers with 5 or 6 plates that will produce 2 gallons of 95% ABV an hour, assuming they are mounted on large enough kettle to support that much distillation. A still of this size is most likely used by hobbyists who is in a hurry to distill all of his 200 gallons of mash at one time, has the resources to fund such an operation and wants the still to sit empty for the rest of the year. OR, it might be used by someone who is making product to sell in his/her licensed craft distillery. OR it is being used by someone who is making untaxed product to sell on the black market. My point being this size still is "most likely" being used by someone who is selling the product either legally or illegally and this is not who we are trying to attract.

John's proposal is not a bill that would be presented to Congress. It is a white paper that explains what we are trying to do and why. It also explains away some of the myths of distilling and describes the safety of the process. It was intended to educate the general public as well as the legislators and legislative aids who will actually write the bill. Had we cut it down to a couple of paragraphs, it would not have been appealing to anyone, especially those not as familiar with the process as you. Once this idea gets put in actual bill form, my guess is that it will be 2 or 3 pages as you say.

There is another aspect of this process that I am not familiar with, but as I understand it, once Congress passes the "law' approving hobby/home distilling, the beloved TTB gets to write the regulations. How that works and how much input we will have is unknown. And, after Washington is done with it, the states will get their shot at what they want the law to say.

Should a law get passed that indeed limits the size of the kettle, there will be many distillers out there just like you who have opted for a larger kettle for convenience sake. We estimate there are 1 millions still in the US. How will the TTB react? Will they do their job and go after the large illegal operations selling untaxed booze or decide to look for a hobbyist who just happens to have an oversized boiler with no history of selling a drop? We would very much like to have your support and ask that you not get turned off by one aspect of the current and unpassed version of our proposal. The legalization of hobby distilling is the ultimate goal. Thanks for your comments and again I am sorry I am so late responding.

Tom Cowdrey

[goinbroke2]

The only issue I have with the size limit, is do they limit the size of the beer equipment? Or bread making equipment or wine etc? Because...size technically doesn't,t matter, if anyone is selling wine or beer, that,s illegal too. Why not limit the size of home wine making gear? I could set up a 200gallon fermenting tank and have a massive vineyard and not raise an eyebrow, but if I have too big of a boiler I must be a criminal? I will automatically do something illegal?
Anyway that's my rant for tonight, something to think about.

[varocketry]

I believe the HDA intent is to be silent on the SIZE issue unless its brought up by someone on the Congressional side.

As they say in government proposal responses : "Don't say BOO WHOO when BOO would do!"

[Brewhaus]

That is exactly true. As noted before, the concern over kettle size was raised by a Senator's office, and two independent sources with experience in these matters. We must be able to justify the figure that we use, if it comes to that. I agree that size of boiler does not mean that someone is or is not selling, and it is the action not the equipment that decides where the hobbyist would stand legally, but we have to play on their terms or they simply will not play.

[Prairiepiss]

I don't understand why people always get bent out of shape because. Someone wants to put a size cap on boilers. get over it. If you are a smart person. You know it will come down to that. There is no way around it. And trying to justify it by saying they don't do it for other things. Doesn't really mater. We are not talking about those things. We are talking about a still. If they made it legal tomorrow to own and use a gallon still. For making personal drink. You know good and well. We would live with it. Building a one gallon still. So we would be within the laws. One gallon is extreme. Just making a point.

Get over the size thing. And look at the bigger picture.

[planethax]

Being allowed a 15g boiler is far better than not being allowed one at all

It's gonna be a tough sell to gov in the first place and we all know gov loves to regulate.

If this is successful there most certainly will be a size restriction(right or wrong) so don't bring it up until gov does (and they will) then work on getting practical restrictions much like we have on hd

[goinbroke2]

Oh I agree guys, I,ll be happy with whatever is legalised. My point is that I don,t like the profiling. If i,m male, I must be sexist, if im white, I must be racist,etc. if I distill I must be a criminal.
Regardless, this is such a small point in the overall scheme of things, let,s not worry about it. I was just commenting on what bugs me.

Here,s another one...wife's on the computer so I,m on the iPad or whatever this thing is called..there,s no apostrophe, but there is a comma...it doesn't,t spell very good either!

Stupid fat fingers.

[rad14701]

We've self moderated ourselves to the 15 - 25 gallon limit for good reason... I had an entire rationale behind it written up but can't seem to find it now... Needless to say, by limiting the boiler size it is less apt for a hobbyist to readily make beyond what would ultimately become the annual production limit... The US government isn't going to say just go ahead and make all you want using as big a rig as you like and we'll trust you to not make and sell any excess... Keeping the size small enough to not be able to earn a living off it would be another rationale... Obviously, size limits have more than one purpose... We can lock in a well thought out suggestion of maximum boiler sizing or we can be force fed one we may not like...

I could probably draft up something similar to what I had written if it would help the effort...

[Dan P.]

15 gallons is plenty big.

[Brendan]

As far as I see it, any form of legalisation is a great thing for the hobby.

If your equipment is slightly larger than the regulations, hey thats far less of a risk than what you take now when the entire hobby is illegal!

If they give an inch we want a mile...lets just get that inch first

[bellybuster]

I would avoid bringing beer kegs into the push completely. Opens a whole other can o worms regarding acquisition of kegs. Guaranteed someone will seize that extreme as a reason to say no. Give them no reason whatsoever to find negative.

[marshrunner757]

I just signed up on free level. As soon as I'm able to I will upgrade!

[Stainless dude]

As far as I see it, any form of legalisation is a great thing for the hobby.

If your equipment is slightly larger than the regulations, hey thats far less of a risk than what you take now when the entire hobby is illegal!

If they give an inch we want a mile...lets just get that inch first

My feelings exactly Brenden

[wv_cooker]

As far as I see it, any form of legalisation is a great thing for the hobby.

If your equipment is slightly larger than the regulations, hey thats far less of a risk than what you take now when the entire hobby is illegal!

If they give an inch we want a mile...lets just get that inch first

My feelings exactly Brenden

Ditto Gentlemen and I am absolutely tickled pink that the discussions are at least in the direction of legalization now. Very nice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Hound Dog]

Just to put in my .02 cents on the size.... I have to agree on the comment made that the 15.5 gallons comes from kegs and that could lead to resistance as to how they are procured. We all know stolen kegs are a problem now to begin with. Perhaps a standard small barrel size like the stainless ones sold for food packaging would be a good limit. I think those are 25-30, not really sure. I don't really think 200 is going to fly or needed.

Just a thought.

[rad14701]

I might be going out on a limb but I doubt that if the government was to take the action we are hoping for that they would be condoning larger volume stills rather than smaller volumes... I'd be content if they were to agree to 15 gallons rather than something ridiculously small, like 1 or 2 gallon maximum... I think 5 - 15 gallons is more realistic to be quite honest... Read back through the entire forum and you'll see that boiler sizes have been creeping larger and larger simply because reflux and plated columns have been getting larger... It gets to a point where even a neophyte could figure out that production levels could easily go beyond personal consumption...

It's a hobby... You won't just run a still once a year... You don't build a street rod and only drive it one Sunday a year... You don't spend thousands of dollars on hunting or fishing equipment and only use it once a year... A hobby, by definition, is an activity you regularly participate in... Let's keep pushing "hobby scale" as just that, a hobby... And "personal consumption" just that, for personal consumption - not gifting or giving away to the entire extended family or neighborhood... Let's get this clearly defined and forget about pushing the limits constantly higher...

a pursuit outside one's regular occupation engaged in especially for relaxation

A hobby is a regular activity done for pleasure - typically during leisure - e.g., collecting themed items and objects, engaging in creative and artistic pursuits, playing sports. Continual participation in a hobby can provide substantial skill and knowledge about it.

[Jimbo]

If we compared it to wine, a household of 2 or more can make 200 gallons a year. 200 gallons of 13% wine = 26 gallons of 100% ethanol. Say 50 gallons of 100 proof to keep the math easy. yes thats a lot.

To make 50 gallons of 100 proof all grain whiskey a year you would need about 600 lbs of grains.

To make 50 gallons of 100 proof a year with a 15 gallon still you would need to do 27 12gallon 8% wash runs. Say 2 a month, ish. 2 a month seems reasonable. If you make beer, you can make 250 gallons a year. Gee, thats about 2 10 gallon batches a month.

i didnt account for cuts, i doubt the government would either.

[rad14701]

Jimbo gets it...!!!

I had all of that worked out in my writings... We don't need to make more "wash" than beer brewers or wine makers can make, yet we'll still have more than enough distilled spirits for two adults... If they drink more than that, oh well, head to the liquor store... It has worked for beer and wine so there's no reason in arguing for anything different for home distilling... Production limits and boiler sizes help keep things under some semblance of control, and that control or implied oversight is what the government would be after... But we wouldn't want there to be any additional restrictions, like permits or licensing either, because we would comply with pre-existing limits and regulations...

[planethax]

If we compared it to wine, a household of 2 or more can make 200 gallons a year. 200 gallons of 13% wine = 26 gallons of 100% ethanol. Say 50 gallons of 100 proof to keep the math easy. yes thats a lot.

To make 50 gallons of 100 proof all grain whiskey a year you would need about 600 lbs of grains.

To make 50 gallons of 100 proof a year with a 15 gallon still you would need to do 27 12gallon 8% wash runs. Say 2 a month, ish. 2 a month seems reasonable. If you make beer, you can make 250 gallons a year. Gee, thats about 2 10 gallon batches a month.

i didnt account for cuts, i doubt the government would either.

This here needs to be PART of the info sent to Government etc etc.
That along with how safe this hobby really is(can be)

[Prairiepiss]

If we compared it to wine, a household of 2 or more can make 200 gallons a year. 200 gallons of 13% wine = 26 gallons of 100% ethanol. Say 50 gallons of 100 proof to keep the math easy. yes thats a lot.

To make 50 gallons of 100 proof all grain whiskey a year you would need about 600 lbs of grains.

To make 50 gallons of 100 proof a year with a 15 gallon still you would need to do 27 12gallon 8% wash runs. Say 2 a month, ish. 2 a month seems reasonable. If you make beer, you can make 250 gallons a year. Gee, thats about 2 10 gallon batches a month.

i didnt account for cuts, i doubt the government would either.

Most people don't look at it so realistically. But they should.

The one thing I don't understand about your post Jimbo.

"if you make beer, y ou can make 250 gallons a year"

How do you figure? When the cap is 200 gal. For a two adult household.

And something that has always been unclear in my mind. Can we (two adult households) make 200 gallons of each beer and wine. Or is it 200 gallons total of both beer and wine. To me the wording is not clear enough to say one way or the other.

And how would this relate to distilling becoming legal? Would it be 200 gallons total ferment period. Or 200 gallons fermented of each?

Of course it would be 100 gallons for a single adult household.

[Jimbo]

Oh is it 200? Thought 250, my bad. shows how much attention I give it. Both are more than I need or brew

[planethax]

It's government, not supposed to be clear is it? lol

I think the common sense way of looking at it (again Governments don't usually have common sense) is
If you are allowed for eg make 200 gallons/year of wine or beer at approx 10%
You should be allowed to make 200 gallons/year ferment (wine or beer) at approx 10%
After distilling at 100% you would have 20g dilute to 50% 40g

So the guidelines(regulations) should be made around that.

Again just my opinion on a realistic way.

In response to PP, Jimbo posting same time