Why all the hate for Turbos?

[bassinjason]

Ok, I may be opening a can of worms here, but I'm curious about why all the hate for turbos by some folks. If a person is trying to make a totally neutral spirit, what's wrong with them? In the end, you have to use carbon, but otherwise it takes more effort to make, say, an ALL BRAN wash as compared to a simple Turbo that has all the nutrients in it. I find my ABV is as high or higher and my cuts are almost identical in both.

Just curious what you more experience boys think....

[Dnderhead]

I haven't used them myself,, but it is not the turbos so much it is pushing the "limit" of high ABV .this causes more heads/tails and off taste,then you have to carbon filter to remove, making a good clean ferment to begin with is much easier/cheaper and produces better product.

[rubber duck]

I got a couple of bag for super cheep and I used them just to see for myself. It made a inferior neutral, why would someone what to go spend 6-8 dollars on a product that doesn't work as well as one of the tried and true recipes? Is it really to much work to do it right and save a little money in the process? I it's all about time and hassle it would be cheeped to just go buy vodka. What's another 10 minutes when your going to spend 4 hours plus stilling.

I used the other bag on a small rum batch and It actually turned out good, but not any better then a yeast bomb.

Basically turbo is a expensive solution to a problem that doesn't exist. It also doesn't work well.

Rd

[rednose]

Well said RD, it's like digging a hole to fill another one.

I would hate to have the need starting to carbon filter only cause I will have a 18% ABV wash when I could have done two wash in the same time of 12% ABV each.

Joe

Basically turbo is an expensive solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

Rd

[bassinjason]

I haven't used them myself,, but it is not the turbos so much it is pushing the "limit" of high ABV .this causes more heads/tails and off taste,then you have to carbon filter to remove, making a good clean ferment to begin with is much easier/cheaper and produces better product.

So, what do you guys like for a good, simple neutral?

[rad14701]

So, what do you guys like for a good, simple neutral?

Check the Tried and True Recipe forum and see which topics have the most pages of posts... That should give you an idea as to which ones are being used and which ones aren't...

All of these can yield crisp clean neutrals with practice and perhaps a bit of tweaking:

Birdwatchers
Gerber
All Bran
Wineo's Plain Old Sugar Wash
Death Wish Wheat Germ

What you will see is that you can either spend more time on the front end or the back end of the overall process in order to get clean neutral spirits... Spending more time mixing up a clean wash makes more sense than attempting to clean up a dirty wash and then again cleaning up nasty neutral spirits... With a recipe you can customize the nutrients in the wash whereas with turbos you are at the mercy of the pre-mix process... You never know what vitamins, minerals, buffers, etc., are in the turbo yeast sachet, or in what proportions... With a recipe like All Bran you can control the amount of cereal (nutrients) that go into the wash, plus you can add more of your own fortifications if you want to refine the wash to your personal needs over time... No fining/clearing agents... No carbon filtering... No more trips to the brew shop... No more wasting money...

Read the horror stories about turbo washes gone bad and read the favorable comments about the recipes above and you'll discover that it isn't just a matter of anyone being prejudiced...

[marc83]

A recent convert right here bassinjassin.
Used alot of turbos,asked the same questions you did,got pointed towards an alternative.If i was stubborn,i really am to be honest ,i would have stuck to my guns and kept using turbos again and again.But i decided to give a tried and true recipe a go,chose a birdwatchers for the ease of it.Put my second one on just the other day while the first is clearing.Ok so i havent distilled it yet but so far so good i say.
Its quite different from just chucking a turbo in some sugar water..Getting all your ingredients together and mixing it up yourself,kinda gives you a sense of achievement,and thats only the beginning.Im just scratching the surface of what im yet to learn.i love it.
Try a birdwatchers or wineos plain ol sugar wash(trying this one next),they are very simple to make and a great start for people wishing to try alternatives to turbos.

[LWTCS]

Try a birdwatchers or wineos plain ol sugar wash(trying this one next),they are very simple to make and a great start for people wishing to try alternatives to turbos.

[LWTCS]

Also, please consider a product like ,,,,,,,,Greygoose (this is not an implication). This vodka gets much of it's appeal from a base material of wheat.

With the all Bran recipe there is a very good carry over of wheatyness. I am sure that not achieving 100% azeotrope is not a bad thing. A nice wash will make a nice distillate (I think).

It is not always about the almighty ABV (I recon).

[kiwistiller]

DWWG made with raw sugar, distilled at 95%. creamy wheaty goodness

[olddog]

A high ABV sometimes is not always a good thing, If you want neutral thats fine, but if your looking for something with flavor, the higher abv will require more dilution to get it down to an acceptable drinking proof, this dilution will also dilute the flavor, resulting in a less tasty drink.


OD

[kiwistiller]

hmm I should clarify.... I mean creamy and wheaty for a Vokda Cheers for pointing that out OD.

[LWTCS]

hmm I should clarify.... I mean creamy and wheaty for a Vokda Cheers for pointing that out OD.

No matter. Thats the deal. Thats the hook.

There are just fundamentally better ways to get a clean, crisp, flavorful (if needed),,,,,,,,,,,,,,buzz.

Your ABV should be an academic by-product of your hard work and good ingredients. Not the be all to end all result.

[rad14701]

The greed for high %ABV is the biggest problem with turbos and it comes at the expense of quality...

[Hannibal]

My 5 cents worth (and 5 cents don't get you much these days), putting as much care and attention into the Turbo as would be given to a Birdwatchers

Turbo Pro's:
Quick
Extremely easy and simple
Slightly higher abv (looking for 14% not 18%)
Advice and help from your Brewshop

Con's
Expensive (the brewshop will readily accept your money)
Takes a long time to clear
Some disagreeable odors but can be cleaned up by distilling and carbon.

Bridwatchers Pro's:
Considerably cheaper
Clears quicker
More pleasant aroma
Advice and help from here

Con's
Longer to ferment
Lower abv 10-12%
May require some background in fermenting/beermaking initially, in order to get consistent, good results.
No Brewshop advice or help (they dont really know anything except what they flog)

Finally I'd say that most new distillers start with Turbos, and many find that when they can produce a reasonable end product they stay at that level.

[blind drunk]

Two cents worth gets you even less these days but here it is -

Con's
Longer to ferment
Lower abv 10-12%
May require some background in fermenting/beermaking initially, in order to get consistent, good results.
No Brewshop advice or help (they dont really know anything except what they flog)

I'd consider all these stated cons as pros bd.

[Dnderhead]

agreed,is not this supposed to be a hobby? even if turbos worked, mixing a+b together where is the hobby in that? I want something better/different than "out of the box"

[Hannibal]

Two cents worth gets you even less these days but here it is -

Con's
Longer to ferment
Lower abv 10-12%
May require some background in fermenting/beermaking initially, in order to get consistent, good results.
No Brewshop advice or help (they dont really know anything except what they flog)

I'd consider all these stated cons as pros bd.

For the sake of comparison I'll leave them as con's.

But as point to follow for producing a better product, yes they are pro's, apart from the Brewshop not wanting us to do it and steering us back to the turbo's. Until I can find a cheaper supply of Oak, i'll probably still go in there

agreed,is not this supposed to be a hobby? even if turbos worked, mixing a+b together where is the hobby in that? I want something better/different than "out of the box"

I find it a great hobby too, and currently do want to perfect my production using Birdwatchers recipe, but I did start with turbo's and found that I got better at using them too.

[rubber duck]

agreed,is not this supposed to be a hobby? even if turbos worked, mixing a+b together where is the hobby in that? I want something better/different than "out of the box"

+1 Not only that if I could buy it I might do just that. None of us are really making our own because it's cheap or easy. A hand crafted, well done booze, with a lot of passion behind it is a wonderful thing to drink.

I guess I like to do things the best that I can. Even if I can only do 1% better than every thing else, it's still better then every thing else.

Turbo yeast is expensive and inferior. I'm going to do it right, I'm going to build the best damn booze that can't be bought.

RD

[Ayay]

Not really a hate for turbo's, it's a hate for the brewshops who push turbo's as the only way to go. A package deal perfect fer ya wildest desires...only a bunch of dollars away an you won't know any better if they can help it.

Go to Macca's an you will get the same whether in BahRain or NeuYork.

Then there's the gourmet chef an the wannabe chef. Even the wannabe chef has the edge over Macca...stills included.

[WalkingWolf]

agreed,is not this supposed to be a hobby? even if turbos worked, mixing a+b together where is the hobby in that? I want something better/different than "out of the box"

+1 Not only that if I could buy it I might do just that. None of us are really making our own because it's cheap or easy. A hand crafted, well done booze, with a lot of passion behind it is a wonderful thing to drink.

I guess I like to do things the best that I can. Even if I can only do 1% better than every thing else, it's still better then every thing else.

Turbo yeast is expensive and inferior. I'm going to do it right, I'm going to build the best damn booze that can't be bought.

RD

+1
Got two packs of turbo sitting with my brew supplies. Never did do a turbo run so can't speak from experience on this one. What I do know is that there is too much time and effort involved to start out with something that has been identified as inferior by many that have come before. If anybody wants the turbos, I'll send them to you for the price to ship em. (you gotta take'em both)

So many get here with their eyes all aglow with dreams of this being the gateway to gallons of free booze. The reality is it's much easier to just buy it. I didn't even drink liquor when I got started and I drink very little now. Give it all away. Enjoy the journey primarily.

ww

[Dnderhead]

I really do not see what is hard about putting cereal in hot water, adding the proper amount of sugar and yeast?
even a mash with malted grain is not hard, agin add hot water and yeast, (sugar if you want)

[rad14701]

Novices are quite often looking for the easy way (shortcut) to good cheap spirits and, unfortunately, brew shops are more than willing to help attempt to fulfill that dream while lining their pockets in the process... The brew shops prey on the inexperience of the novices and probably don't even care if the novices figure out they've been taken advantage of because they know that when one income stream dries up yet another will come through the door in the near future... I have known a craft/hobby shop owner who fits that same description perfectly...

[marc83]

I am going into my local brewshop for some other items,cleaners etc.I must ask the owner what he thinks about some of the natural recipes like the alternatives found here,see what his views are on them,will let everyone know what he says,it got my very curious now see if he tries to steer me back towards turbos...

I think if someone is asking all the questions WHY are people so down on turbo yeasts you really have to at least attempt an alternative....really...it is not hard,what are you afraid of???being wrong???man up,i know this cos i was once asking those same questions,and not too long ago.
I tried an alternative(birdwatchers) and the first turned out so well theres another going at the moment.Once you do a couple it will become second nature,just like it was to nip into the brewshop and pick up a turbo yeast...a turbo carbon....a turbo clear....oh....shit ive run out of money....
Did i mention it is also quite cheap so dont be worried about cost!!
my 2cents(again) if its worth anything.

[Aces High]

I did confront my local brew guy once. He told me that there was no way i could make cleaner vodka than with the triple distilled turbo yeast. I told him I use baking yeast.. oh theres no way you could make a clean vodka with baking yeast. Told him I never carbon filter.... Oh you'll never get it clean without carbon filtering. I just use plain sugar... oh you'll get much cleaner vodka if you use this dextrose (at $6 per kilo probably)

Told me a bunch of other crap which I planely told him was wrong, and why it was wrong and he just kept on spouting the stuff he'd been told by the turbo companies. He was getting a bit angry by the end cause I knew a lot more about distilling they he thought he did (dont get me wrong, he's a gun beer maker) As I was leaving he said "alright, if your neutral is so good, prove it.. prove it" ... "Fine" I said. Next day I bought him a sample. He looked at it, smelt it and finally had a taste and said "yeah thats pretty good vodka" I figured it wasn't worth telling him that my vodka cost about 1/10th of what I could make it if I bought the ingredients from him.

The moral of the story... most of these brewshop guys make some awsome beer and you should listen to their advise on this stuff, but they know didley squat about distilling

[rubber duck]

Aces High I had a similar experience recently.

I went to a brew shop that I had not yet been to and was checking thing out. The owner sure knew a lot about distilling. He knew so much that he lost a sale and my business forever. It's going to take a lot of turbo yeast and bad advice for him to recoup the sale and potential customer he could have had.

RD

[stock doc]

I need to chime in on this one.
I used to run cracked corn (chicken feed) mash through a pot still with my brother
in the early '70's. It was fun and as teens we always had a supply of white lightin but at that age your interests
change quickly. I never really thought about stillin again until late last year. I found this site and jumped back in.
I'll be the first to admit I didn't do too much research but I found this product call Turbo Pure 48.
Never had that 40 years ago so what the hell I ordered a dozen packs from Brew Haus for $4.49 ea which is about
equal to a 4 oz jar of Active Yeast here locally.
It makes a 6 gallon wash that I let clear for 2 weeks which yields about 1 gallon of product through my pot head starting
at 63%abv and I quit around 35%abv. Diluted back to 25% I'll run it through a VM atop a 40" SS 3" column for 93% aver.

My point: Turbo's aren't so bad that you need to give it away for free as suggested here. I haven't been stillin for 4000 posts
but I can get a very clean neutral product every time. The brew shops are lining their pockets at $4.49 a pack?
That's not that bad... is it?

Doc

[Aces High]

Last christmas I was running short on neutral and knew that we were having lots of people around and we'd be plowing through it. I had a standard pack of still spirits turbo that I'd bought a couple of years ago and thought, what the hell, i'll give it a try. Instead of putting it in 25L I made up a 100L wash cause i'd heard that its better if you use half a pack at a time. With sugar it should have returrned about 10% ABV (fairly high by my usual standards)

Even though this thing had been sitting in a hot cupboard for about 2 years it went off like a rocket and finished off completely in just over a week. So i stripped it, then put it through the VM. It just didn't taste neutral and just reminded me of what I made out of the easy still when i first started. So I put it through the VM again and lost even more product but it still tasted nothing like a wineos or a DWWG neutral (i like use DWWG for my netrals to get some wheat flavour). In the end I even carbon filtered it, and I've still got a 5L flagon of it sitting on top of my fridge at home. Im sure i can use it to clean out my nest still build.
The moral of all this. Even if its free, your friends will still only like drinking your stuff if its good.

BTW Doc, they cost close to $10 here in Australia, so at that price it's much cheaper to knock up a winoes recipe

[blind drunk]

I used turbo for my first wash a few years back. I remember impressing my neighbor when I showed him the 18% abv of my wash. We ran it through his still for the strip and a few months later I did a spirit run when I got my own. I kept running it through because I couldn't get that certain smell and taste out. Mind you it's a pot head and I wasn't expecting vodka, but the character of my wash was completely obliterated by the power of the turbo. I still have a sachet in my freezer Maybe I'll toss it into my septic tank, it might clean out the pipes bd.

[Ayay]

Brewshops cannot 'do' stillin cos they are under surveillance.

They are good for an alcometer, corks fer ya bottle collection, a gasket or lid fer ya fermenter, oak chips, an a little carbon

Unfortunately their stillin advice comes from their supplier and not from here!