Vinegar Cleaning

[hcspng]

I've done Vinegar cleaning with red vinegar and when it was distilled it turns colorless.
but my problem is that inside of my column pipe are not shiny and i think it doesn't clean it?
does alcohol cleaning will help it?

[Braz]

You are not looking for shiny. The vinegar run is meant to be acidic and to clean out any residue from the solder flux.

[EuroStiller]

Braz is righ on the mark. I like to do vinegar runs now and then too, to just clean out the pipes.

Most commercial red vinegars sold in the USA are just white vinegar with a touch of molasses, sometimes not even that, for flavor and color and are not TRUE red wine vinegars. So long as it was a 5% vinegar you used, your fine.

Euro Stiller

[hcspng]

Thanks and does i have to do a alcohol run too?

[rad14701]

Thanks and does i have to do a alcohol run too?

Yes, do one sacrificial alcohol run as well... You can dilute and re-distill for practice but in the end you have to toss out those sacrificial spirits collected...

[montanadave]

For my sacrificial alcohol first run I bought a gallon jug of the cheapest wine I could find. It was red, at about 13% ABV, and it distilled pretty well. (Tossed it after distilling) Best part though was getting to keep the nice glass jug for feints. (Way better than buying cheap boxed wine.)

[paintball]

I try and gather info as it pertains to me and I have come to the initial cleansing run,.. this Boka has been used before but not by me. I had to repair outlet tubes and such with the proper solder of course. My question here is I understand the "why" the vinegar acid wash followed by the sacrificial alcohol wash and am planning on doing both.
A brew company owner, a great one, mentioned to me he would never use vinegar for anything as it imparts a taste. Now he only mashes for beer, its not distilled. I had mentioned to him the HD forums recommended use of vinegar and he gave me something else to use, a sanitizer I believe.
My question is,... whew, finally,... have any of you ever been able to taste a vinegar taste to any of your following distills?
I am very concerned about getting the flux and residues out of the column.
Opinions please as I am clueless as I have had no experience cleaning a copper column.

[tafinaf]

Where I grew up, vinegar was yellow. I always thought that white vinegar was only achievable by distilling red, orange, yellow, green, blue, or purple vinegar.

This is not the reason it came out white, though. The reason is that acetic acid boils at a temperature about 20°C higher than water, so what you get is steam with very little vinegar in it, as you can easily test by condensing it and conduct a taste experiment. In other words, whatever goes through your pipes is far too diluted to clean them to shinyness - unless you run it for long enough to boil all the water out and all that's left is the acid.

[jake_leg]

Well, not quite. At first what you take off is mostly water, but you get increasing amounts of acetic in the distillate as time goes on.

Something similar happens when you pot still a mixture of alcohol and water, also miscible liquids whose boiling points differ by about 20 Celsius.

[tafinaf]

The difference is that in your average wash, the substance with the lower boiling point constitutes about 10%. In your average vinegar it is about 95%.

[jake_leg]

Another difference is that nobody wants to drink 1% booze, but even 1% acetic acid cleans up copper pretty well. Especially when hot. Try it and see for yourself.

[BrewPal]

New to this, and have a question. Why the sacraficial 1st alcohol run? Seems that if the column has been cleaned and rinsed, why does the first run need to be tossed? I'm running a SS column, if that makes any difference. Any insight as to why this is to be done, would really be appreciated. I like to know the "why" of things when I'm doing them.

Cheers

[Bayou-Ruler]

New to this, and have a question. Why the sacraficial 1st alcohol run? Seems that if the column has been cleaned and rinsed, why does the first run need to be tossed? I'm running a SS column, if that makes any difference. Any insight as to why this is to be done, would really be appreciated. I like to know the "why" of things when I'm doing them.

Cheers

Its done as an added safety measure to insure any oils or other contaminates from manufacture are purged from the still.

[rad14701]

What Bayou-Ruler said... The high proof alcohol vapor will strip off anything left behind by the water and vinegar run... Or, if it makes you feel better, it's like the first dollar a business makes not going into the till and never gets spent... But you wouldn't frame it and hang it on your wall either... You'd probably use it for cleaning, killing ants, or whatever...

[BrewPal]

Thanks for the info guys!

Cheers

[kenfyoozed]

New to this, and have a question. Why the sacraficial 1st alcohol run? Seems that if the column has been cleaned and rinsed, why does the first run need to be tossed? I'm running a SS column, if that makes any difference. Any insight as to why this is to be done, would really be appreciated. I like to know the "why" of things when I'm doing them.

Cheers

Plus for new stills it is a great way to have some hand s on exeprience. I saved up some nasty runs i had, and then used them added with same amout of water to practice running my still. Each one is different and like to be run a certain way. So practice does make perfect.

[BrewPal]

Plus for new stills it is a great way to have some hand s on exeprience. I saved up some nasty runs i had, and then used them added with same amout of water to practice running my still. Each one is different and like to be run a certain way. So practice does make perfect.

More than understand the practice part, as I'm sure it will take a number of runs before I get something half way decent. Practice, however, does not alone justify the statements that the first run should be discarded. That is what I was trying to get an answer to, which I probably have.

Cheers

[Dnderhead]

the first run is discarded because it "washes" out some stuff that vinegar/water does not,
thus the first alcohol run mite/mite not be contaminated.usually this is done with a cheep wash.

[junkyard dawg]

personally, I think that the copper needs to build up a little patina. I don't like (from experience) the way that raw shiny copper affects the distillate. Let that still get a few runs through it before you start drinking your wares... At worst, your just going to thoroughly clean out any flux or crap from building... at best, you will get a good grasp on how to run your still before drinking what comes out of it. Have patience... You will be rewarded in the end.

[clacker]

So gallon (that about 4-5 litres right?) of ~10% wine with enough water to make sure element stays covered... I assume I could just use a gallon of wash for the same result?

[WalkingWolf]

So gallon (that about 4-5 litres right?) of ~10% wine with enough water to make sure element stays covered... I assume I could just use a gallon of wash for the same result?

If the question you're asking is will a gallon of wash and some water be sufficient to clean a new build? no

[whiskymonster]

i had to do some repairs and a bit of a redesign.

instead of running the still for cleaning, i just chucked all the bits in the boiler, and boiled for a half hour in vinegar, half hour in feints, and then rinse with water.

then i went overboard, and chucked it in the oven for an hour to force the patina.

next run was better than the last. mostly due to the redesign, but certainly no probs after cleaning.

just make sure the oven isnt too hot, or youll de solder the whole job!

the run might be easier if your still doesnt come to bits though. ymmv
at the very least, a sacfificial alc run will put a bit of a patina on your pipes.

j

[clacker]

If the question you're asking is will a gallon of wash and some water be sufficient to clean a new build? no

Specifically for the alcohol run after a vinegar run first.

I've read a few posts over the years that suggest a cask of cheap wine is an option to provide the ethanol in quantity but just asking as a gallon of wash is cheaper.

[rad14701]

Clacker, the point is to push a good amount of alcohol vapor through the still... A gallon of ~10% ABV wash simply doesn't have enough alcohol in it... You've spent good money on making your still now down cheap out on getting it ready to run... We've all bitten the bullet and done ample sacrificial runs... Isn't personal health worth wasting some wash...??? Get used to waste because you're gonna have to pass up a lot of alcohol in this hobby...

[clacker]

Fair comment Rad, it's just I keep reading from many posts about using a cask of wine or some such for the sacrificial run.

My thoughts were half a wash with no packing and then the other half with packing to play with the reflux but I'll just go full wash no packing in pot mode and play around with my second wash with two spirit runs rather than a strip.

Thanks

[rad14701]

My thoughts were half a wash with no packing and then the other half with packing to play with the reflux but I'll just go full wash no packing in pot mode and play around with my second wash with two spirit runs rather than a strip.

Whatever method you choose just make sure you are sending enough alcohol vapor up through the still... We've never talked numbers but I'd guess that pushing roughly a half liter of pure alcohol, minimum, through should do the trick... A gallon of cheap wine ($9.99 - $13.99) is a drop in the bucket compared to how much money is invested in some stills and it only needs to be done once - or after major repairs or modifications... Once you have a stock of feints you'll be able to use them instead of store bought wine...

[Dan P.]

I've never done a sacrificial alcohol run and never had any problems.
I occasionally run vinegar through my set up to clean out oxides. Because I use non toxic solder and flux, I find that all I need to do to clean a newly soldered part is give it a scrub with scouring pad and detergent and give it a a good rinse.
-Dan

[rad14701]

I've never done a sacrificial alcohol run and never had any problems.
I occasionally run vinegar through my set up to clean out oxides. Because I use non toxic solder and flux, I find that all I need to do to clean a newly soldered part is give it a scrub with scouring pad and detergent and give it a a good rinse.
-Dan

Just because your solder and flux are non-toxic does not mean that they won't impart off tastes or smells... I consider the scrubbing with a good detergent scouring pad and rinsing to be the first step, followed by a vinegar and water run, and then a sacrificial wash or wine run...

If anyone has ever worked on a farm, or just about anywhere else in the food industry, they should be aware of the multiple extra steps that must be taken in order to assure that the product they are putting to market is clean and safe... Take it from my personal experience that you don't have to dump thousands of pounds of milk down the drain very many times to learn the hard lesson about keeping things clean... We should expect the same attention to detail with our home distillation practices... But bacteria and chemical taste and smell are are two different categories altogether I'll agree... I'd just hate to have someone tinkering and making adjustments to washes and distilling practices when lack of thorough cleaning is the culprit...

I'm not calling you out, Dan P., I'm merely interjecting this information because many a first time still builder may also be a first time solderer and those of us who have done any amount of soldering knows that beginners quite often aren't as neat as those with experience... The same goes for welding...

Geez, you'd think I was OCD about cleaning... One look at my office and any such notions would be gone...

[Dan P.]

You are right, rad, it is better to be thorough. I think one's first one or more distillations should be sacrificial anyway, unless you have very blunt taste-buds.
However, I think that the requirement of three distillations (vinegar, water and alcohol) is excessive. I also doubt that the vinegar vapour will remove any more flux (it's often stated purpose) than can be removed through ordinary cleaning.

[GreenMTNfermenter]

not to bring this topic back up to present, but i was talking with a local friend who has some experience in distillation (not a great amount) but has a ton of experience in brewing, and actually commercial beverage making and selling. When i mentioned that after i finished my first build that i would do a sacrificial run of vinegar , then water, then alcohol, he looked at me like i was crazy and said, don't ever put vinegar into your still. now i am reading all over this forum about doing a vinegar run, and i am not questioning the experience and knowledge here (i will still be doing a vinegar run.) i am just curious, any thoughts about his hesitance to use vinegar? (it was a very quick conversation and i will see him again this weekend to get more of his reasoning, but basically he said that vinegar can taint future runs, and that is why he also never cleans his brewing equipment with vinegar.)
i can understand that real vinegar is a live, soured product, but using good old white vinegar doesn't (i think) have the vinegar mother that could infect and sour our alcohol fermentations, right?

thanks for your thoughts
greenmtn