Auto/preplan cuts? (using bottles & airpressure)

[CheshireFool]

Sorry if this is discussed elsewhere,
Mostly I'm fuzzy on the language, so search results get me nowhere.

If you take a coke bottle, put two straws in it, and then seal the top with modeling clay, you can pour water into one of the straws and slowly fill the bottle with water. Until that is, the water level plugs the second straw and the air pressure in the bottle stops any more water dripping in.

If you know your amount of wash, would it be acceptable practice to set up a 50ml bottle (for 20L wash) with such a configuration to automatically take off the first 50ml?

Or use a series of bottles if you want to collect the heads or tails in less than 1L increments?

[Kifi]

Really like your thinking. Of course, that wouldn't account for the varied onset of heads, MR and tails from wash to wash, even with close to identical ingredients and processes. Smell and taste are the only ways to make proper and reliable cuts, of course. But you could sure get close, and perhaps limit the length of your next run.....

[CheshireFool]

Well, with a setup like this, (and depending on how much you were expecting as output), you could just keep multiple smaller portions (as long as you label them), determine what was what using a decent nose?

When stringing 4x 250ml glass bottles together, you'd have more granularity in deciding what to keep for flavouring / discard / remix / burn. If you chain up enough bottles to meet your expected output, you'll have maybe 250ml in between where the cut should have been, but you could have the entire run broken down.

If you're bothering to watch your still, just be sure to mark the bottle that was in use for the right temp / cut. Pushing down a straw deeper into a bottle would cut its fill short if you wanted exact control on the cuts but wanted everything portioned out like this.

[blanikdog]

Why not simply use a cup/glass/vessel which is graduated to 50ml and use that???

"If you're bothering to watch your still, just be sure to mark the bottle that was in use for the right temp / cut. Pushing down a straw deeper into a bottle would cut its fill short if you wanted exact control on the cuts but wanted everything portioned out like this. Another interesting thought. If you had done some reading you would have surely found that we recommend that one ALWAYS watches ones still.

Perhaps you could also visit the Welcome Centre and tell us a little about your still and you experience, if any.

Stay Safe .

[CheshireFool]

I have read that it is recommended to always watch ones still.

I've also read a good number of posters here who like to use timers or thermometer alarms to notify them of when they should make their cuts while they do something like read, or yard work. That line is simply those those that do not want to follow a best practice approach.

For the first question, if you are taking off 50ml no matter what, and are someone who has decided to use temperature alarms, then this would be a solution so you know the still is cutting the foreshot at 50ml, and will keep running for the heads without intervention until the alarm is sprung and you come back to your still. Or it may be useful for those who are patiently reading / watching their still while reading in the same room for less hassle in putting down the book.

In one light it may encourage people to not watch their still, and for others it may be a convenient control method.

I brought it up for the sake of discussion.

[olddog]

You are trying to overthink something that is simple.......WHY




OD

[Ayay]

Hehe OD, but I alredy wrote this so here tis:

CF, your idea seems to be a method of avoiding having to change the collection bottles when they get full. I don't think it will make the cuts for you.

In your example of a coke bottle, if the input straw is taller than the output straw then all the product will flow through the bottle and out the output straw, but I think you mean the input straw is shorter than the output straw so when the bottle is full the product will overflow at the mouth of the input straw, say into a funnel leading to another coke bottle with straws and so on.

Yes collecting in small jars will increase the accuracy of the cuts when you test each jar by taste and smell. Making the cuts means deciding which jars to keep for drinking out of the whole line of jars. You can only narrow it down to a whole jar. Say a jar has an annoying presence of early tails...it won't go away by diluting it in the hearts...you will taste it in your drinkin likker (hearts)!

I am saying this as a drinker of un-aged white from a reflux still. If you are oaking and ageing then you are likely a pot stiller and the cuts are a finer art where selected heads and tails will slowly transform into something special inside the hearts. And the good pot stillers can make the cuts right there as it comes out of the still.

[CheshireFool]

Because it helps flush out ideas & understanding of the process along with possible developments.
The whys and the why nots.

It certainly sounds as though the veterans are in favor of using the proper skills involved with distilling.

This could be seen as a fail safe for new distillers who may forget to take off foreshots?
Or just for those that want to break the run down into multiple bottles (perhaps they are new)?

Ayay: the coke bottle would be to have a 'air intake' straw, and a straw attached along the output spout. once the fluid level in the bottle is high enough to block the 'air intake' straw, the remaining air in the bottle is trapped. So as more product drips down, the air pressure in the bottle will stop the fluid from filling the bottle further, and the product will move on further down the output spout. So you could have multiple jars all of the same size, and if you wanted, could adjust the straws so that only the desired amount fills each jar, or simply have each jar fill in turn until it is nearly full without having to switch anything out yourself.

[olddog]

This could be seen as a fail safe for new distillers who may forget to take off foreshots?

You never forget to take foreshots. Now you are sounding like a troll



OD

[likkerluvver]

I have read that it is recommended to always watch ones still.

I've also read a good number of posters here who like to use timers or thermometer alarms to notify them of when they should make their cuts while they do something like read, or yard work. That line is simply those those that do not want to follow a best practice approach.....

Those of us who use a thermometer with alarm do so to help us identify when we get into tails. After the first few runs, few 'stillers want to stare at a thermometer or a parrot/alcohol-meter for several hours non-stop. Though I can be forgetful, I can't imagine forgetting to run off foreshots. - The smell alone, prior to the first drop of distillate, is enough for me. I will continue to collect heads in small jars until I am definitely into hearts. Then collect into gallon jug(s) until restarting collection in small jars - well before the anticipated onset of tails. The temperature change alarm merely helps confirm where (in which jar(s)) the change to tails begins. Sight, sounds, smells, tastes are all used in the on-going monitoring procedure. It can't be done if you're not close to the still and attentive.

Any absent or inattentive 'stiller would be well-advised to do yard work rather than read. They will be safer if/when the explosion occurs.

In one light it may encourage people to not watch their still, and for others it may be a convenient control method.

Any additional aid to controlling a still while remaining on-site and attentive is welcome.

I brought it up for the sake of discussion.

You succeeded in this aim. I look forward to hearing how it performs in practice.

[Prairiepiss]

If you run a chain of them it will not be the same as just changing out your collection jars. All bottles would be smeared. Because the distillate would have to run through the first bottle to get to the second and so on down the line. So it would not be making any cuts for you. You mite as well stick a gallon jug under it and collect it all the fill your bottles. I don't know why you would want to do that. The bottles would just be filled nice and neat.

[rad14701]

It certainly sounds as though the veterans are in favor of using the proper skills involved with distilling.

Veteran distillers have learned not to rely on a crutch or three to make good spirits... You still need to make proper cuts, not generic cuts, if you're going to become proficient... And you'll need to switch collection jars...

And +1 on what Prairiepiss and others have said...

[CheshireFool]

Sorry, I guess I still havn't worded the concept that well.
So I used MSPaint.




It would allow for a long series of bottles to be set up ahead of time, doesn't smear, and can be as granular / generous as you want on how the bottles are divided up.
Yes, you of course would still have to manually adjust your still and monitor temps etc.
This is just a way to collect product without switching bottles.

[Tater]

Looks like you fellas are playing with a troll again aint ya.

[Prairiepiss]

Looks like you fellas are playing with a troll again aint ya.

:ebiggrin :

And yes that pic has smeared wrighten all over it. What are you thinking will happen in this pic? Are you expecting the first bottle to fill up fist then move on to the next? No its going to run down dropping SOME in the first bottle and since not all of it can go in there it will flow right by and drop SOME in the next and so on and so on. So you will get 3 bottles of the same thing they will just have the premeasured amount. Now the other problem with your bottle trick is. What's keeping the flow from going out the second tube(vent tube)? Yes the bottle will stop filling but then it will find the path of least resistance. And that would be your vent straw. The way you have it in your pic the vent is lower than your input. So thar she blows out the vent straw on to the table. Even if you did make the vent taller than your input you would have a buildup in the connecting pipe putting pressure on the input straws and raising the level in the vent straw. So when you go to pull the cork it will drain back into your bottle filling it more if not over.

And another thing you have the tubes backwards inside the bottles. This configuration would push fluid out the vent straw.

And by the way straws aren't in the safe to use list last I checked.

[olddog]

Looks like you fellas are playing with a troll again aint ya.

Yup, I think his user name says it all


OD

[airhill]

That idea was originally used by Riku as a simple heads removal system, I think for his ARC. Reference in Harry's library http://distillers.tastylime.net/library ... /index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow at page 23.

[CheshireFool]

Sorry if I was coming off as a troll, it was not the intent,
'CheshireFool' is just a moniker I have been using for a very very long time,
Thank you airhill for pointing to that document.

Yes, pages 23 & 24 outline at least what I was trying to say,
They worded and designed it much better than my attempt, elaborating on the dynamics.

[exon]

Seems to me you are havin fun, flying in the face of conventional wisdom... Tell us how it works out for you once you give it a spin !
Good luck
exon

[Bagasso]

I think the idea is interesting. Have to use safe materials though so no plastic straws or plastic coke bottles. I could see this being useful if you collect in small amounts (100ml) them maybe a large container at the end for tails. You may not become very good at making cuts but I bet you'll end up a better blender. Some say that is where the true art is.

There may be smearing but it might not be enough to make much of a difference. Gotta try it to see what she really does.

[Dnderhead]

I was looking at this I thought "bottle filler" then after thinking about it no way no how is it going to work. when full to vent ,it will just come out the vent.there is no "auto shutoff"

[sterlingchap]

I was looking at this I thought "bottle filler" then after thinking about it no way no how is it going to work. when full to vent ,it will just come out the vent.there is no "auto shutoff"

Correct.
Though there ARE ways to set such an idea up (automatic , sequential collection) if it is thought to be useful. With minimal smearing too.
At face value, I welcome the Cheshirefool's openness in discussing the basis of his idea - even though the physics (not my strongest subject!) of the tubes and air pressure effects is flawed. I like puzzles and brain-teasers and had a bit of fun figuring out just why. And probably learned a few things to keep handy in the back of my mind for personal reference too......
No damage done, and an interesting concept for those so inclined.
Chap

[airhill]

The air outlet is above the liquid collection point, there is a loop after the junction on the inlet side. As liquid fills the bottle and covers the air outlet tube it rises up this tube to a point where liquid is in the inlet side. Because of the loop on the inlet side and the pressure in the bottle maintained by the column of liquid in the air outlet the liquid can no longer enter the bottle and exits the alternate path.
As this has already been built and used I doubt the theory is in question.

[sterlingchap]

Edited by poster

[airhill]

Take a piece of 8mm or larger vinyl tube plug one end form it into a loop and pour liquid in it at whatever rate you like.

[The Baker]

.... as long as the straw is narrow enough for the liquid's meniscus to prevail over gravity but wide enough to allow the full still output flow as the "cut" is collected, yes. Commonsense tells me that if the straw is wide enough to receive every drop of still output as the cut is collected, the straw will be too wide to support a meniscus able to plug it satisfactorily. The meniscus is prone to "glug" and release the internal pressure, thus restarting the flow until the next "glug" - not a system I'd want to leave alone for any length of time....

I think you have answered a question that had puzzled me.
I was using a plastic tube to rack wash from one container to another, and decided that it was a bit slow and I would use a much bigger tube so that it would be a lot faster.
Didn't work. I could see that that was because it was too big but you have described the reasoning behind that.
Thanks.

[airhill]

Obviously reality should never get in the way of an interesting thread

[sterlingchap]

edited by poster

[airhill]

That idea was originally used by Riku as a simple heads removal system, I think for his ARC. Reference in Harry's library http://distillers.tastylime.net/library ... /index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow at page 23.

This was on the previous page. Also the idea that a small tube syphon moves liquid as quickly as a larger tube (given equal circumstances) is simply not true (I have shifted a lot of liquids using syphons). I assume by the meniscus you are referring to surface tension effect, this does not play a significant role in this application, it does however in column packing and distilling, more than most realise.

[sterlingchap]

Edited by poster