removing Methanol in a continuous still

[dullfig]

Hi everyone:

First off, I'm new to this place, haven't built a still yet, bought plans for a Charles 803 (i know, not the best for drinking), so Hi everyone!

So I've been reading everything I can get my hands on, and I think I have a pretty good understanding of how the fractionating column works. I think it is the general consensus that you cannot remove methanol in a continuous still, which got me wondering. What if you made your column higher, and ran the top end at about 140 degrees? wouldn't the methanol be collected at the top, and the ethanol somewhere further down? is this practical? would the column have to be too tall?

I thought this is how petroleum refineries do this, collecting different hydrocarbons by tapping the column at different heights.

I appreciate any comments

Dan.

[NZChris]

It's a fuel still. Use it to make fuel, then you don't have to worry about methanol coz methanol is fuel.

[heartcut]

A continuous still with takeoff locations and temperatures appropriate to collection of the different temperature fractions (and a steady supply of wash) could remove more of the methanol, heads, tails in a wash than a batch still, IMO. That requires a fairly high level of automation to pull off and doesn't produce the same profit level as using as much of the distillate as possible, like some of the big distilleries. Some of that white dog is nasty and needs the legally required barrel time to become drinkable. I like the flavors produced in my batch stills, but see no reason why someone with the time, money and knowledge couldn't make good product in a continuous still, it'd just be hard to describe that as "hobby level".

[Edwin Croissant]

Welcome dullfig Please introduce yourself in the welcome center.

I found a copy of the blueprint for a Charles # 803 4" and 6" column still on the internet and this does not look like a continuous still to me. It is a boiler feeding an offset placed thumper or a bubbler with a column on top. So you should be able to make conventional cuts with this still. I leave it to the pro's to comment if this is an efficient design.

I think it is the general consensus that you cannot remove methanol in a continuous still

Please be advised that I am a apostate from the "True believers in the boiling point" after I found out about the ABV dependent relative volatility of the other alcohols. You can remove the methanol in a continuous still as done in all the ethanol plants by using a separate column. You cannot remove the methanol in a discontinuous still by making cuts. The methanol will be spread out over your entire run and will actually concentrate in your tails.

Regards,

Edwin




Now you can burn me at the stake for blasphemy

[dullfig]

So you would basically feed the firs column somewhere in the middle, and whatever comes out the top, feed that into the middle of a second column, and then you would end up with ethanol in the reboiler, and methanol coming out the top, right?

I know this is a gross oversimplification, i'm talking conceptual here.

Dan

[heartcut]

Feed around the middle, product takeoff and temperature metering at several of the trays, automatic temperature control with reboiler and takeoff rates as control elements. Perforated plates if you had a good model, bubble or valve plates if you weren't exactly sure, adjustable downcomers might be a good idea.
Don't know if anybody already makes good spirits with a continuous still, but if it was my assignment, I'd model and make it in the above fashion, run and model it (and try the hootch), then rebuild based on the model. It'd be expensive and fun.

[Woodpile]

I think it is the general consensus that you cannot remove methanol in a continuous still

Please be advised that I am a apostate from the "True believers in the boiling point" after I found out about the ABV dependent relative volatility of the other alcohols. You can remove the methanol in a continuous still as done in all the ethanol plants by using a separate column. You cannot remove the methanol in a discontinuous still by making cuts. The methanol will be spread out over your entire run and will actually concentrate in your tails.

Regards,

Edwin

Could you elaborate on this, perhaps cite some references? Not wanting to burn you at the stake at all, but I am curious how a lower boiling point material would concentrate at the high-temp end. I am operating under the impression that stills work because of variations in volatility and this is a predictable fact. I fully understand that it is not perfect separation, as some water comes through in foreshots as well - heck, it comes through at room temp.

Fores always seem to tast like fores and tails always seem to taste like tails - I presumed this was because of consistent factors in volatility.

[emptyglass]

The biggest problem with a continuous still is not separating fractions, but feeding the beast.
Lets walk through this;
If you could make say, 2 litres an hour in a continuous still. By 24 hrs in a day, you need to make 48 litres of alc at a theoretical 100% a day.
Say you made your washes ferment to 10% (for easy math), that's 480 litres a day you need to ferment.
Assuming your ferment is done and dusted, ready to still in 7 days (3 days activity, 4 days clearing, simplified)
That means a 3360 litre ferment once a week, no stuff ups. That's 887 gallons. You up for that? that's a big bag of grain each week....
Its not about the still, just batch it.

[dullfig]

I think the reason I like continuous stills is it seems easier to achieve a steady state during the run. In batch mode the composition of the feed keeps changing as you progress. With continuous, you keep feeding the raw stock from start to end. I may be wrong but it seems like once you get everything set right, you won't need to fiddle much with the still

[dullfig]

In other words I'm not looking to produce massive quantities of alcohol, it's just the design appeals to me.

[dullfig]

And besides, I haven't built anything yet. I might be completely wrong

[Edwin Croissant]

The biggest problem with a continuous still is not separating fractions, but feeding the beast.

Exactly
There is a post from slatten in the AD forum that describes this: And what was the meaning of the machine was to run it against a Continuous ferment reactor that I built, that ferments out 25 liters of mash a day , so my machine is 10 times too large.

It is not a challenge build a continuous still, the challenge is to build a very small continuous still

[Prairiepiss]

If a small hobby scale continuous still was feasible. We all would be using them. But at the moment there are maybe a handful of people experimenting and using them. And most of them aren't new to distilling. And have some higher then average experience. What does that tell you?.

The still you bought plans for. Is a fuel still. Even though the design has been around for a long time. And after to take a good look around. You will see really nobody uses one to make drink. Why would that be?

We get new distillers all the time. Who have a wild idea that continuous stills are the answer. We tell then they are not. They get mad. We tell them to prove us wrong. And we never see any more about it. So what do you think your odds are?

Do yourself the favor. And us. And concentrate your efforts on a known good still design for making a drink. Build it learn to drive it. Learn to actually distill. And make a good product. Then if you still think a continuous still is feasible. Maybe then work on it.

And not to mention. You should really research how much methanol is produced with a good recipe. And its not the only thing you need to worry about. Actually it is a very small portion of what you need to worry about.

[Edwin Croissant]

Could you elaborate on this, perhaps cite some references?

Sydney Young describes the behavior of amyl alcohol in the chapter XXVII: Distillation of mixtures of water and ethyl alcohol, with the other volatile products of fermentation in his book Distillation principles and processes published in 1922.
G.W. Monier-Williams describes the behavior in the chapter III at page 72 and onwards in his book Power Alcohol also published in 1922.

You can find more in the following topics:
Methanol concentrate in the tails according an EC study
ABV dependent volatility of fusel oils
Re: Eliminating or Trapping Fusel oils

The most recent book I found mentioning this behavior is: Extracting Bioactive Compounds for Food Products: Theory and Applications (2009)

The order in which the various alcohols are carried over is not by boiling point, to think that is an illusion, you might get what you want, but you won't understand why it worked.

All the books mentioned in this and the linked topics can be found with Google. Under Dutch law I am not allowed to post direct links for copyrighted material , I am however allowed to download them Your law may be different.

[rad14701]

We really don't need an education here on continuous distillation or how to remove components not suitable for drinking... Your lack of understanding is what is being pointed out... As mentioned, you aren't the first, nor will you be the last new member to think they have the solution to hobby scale continuous distillation... Trust me, I've been in enough debates about it and nobody has come up with a viable solution yet...

The Charles 803 was designed and published in Mother Earth News by Robert Warren back around 1980, some 30-odd years ago... I remember when the article was first published... It was never intended to be used for consumable spirits... The temperature control valve itself ranges in price from $299 to $349 dollars even today... You'll have almost $1,000 tied up in materials by the time the column is completed yet still won't be able to make cuts... The design is flawed by the fact that the water control valve attempts to keep the vapor temperature at 172F regardless of whether it has Foreshots, Heads, Hearts, or Tails rising through it... The still essentially smears cuts from beginning to end because you can't make cuts with this design - period...!!! Scrap the idea and get serious about whether or not you want to enter the craft of home distillation for personal consumption or not... Or you can be yet another new member trying to prove everyone wrong about continuous distillation, and you would be the first to do so if successful...

[dullfig]

um, i wasn't trying to educate anyone. I think you may be responding to Edwin's post....

[drinkingdog]

What confuses me is why anyone would think about or want to run a continuous still when it comes to hobby scale. I could understand if you were legal and in business for yourself, but not hobby scale.

[Irishbull]

That does not sound like a hobby scale still to me. It sounds like it has the potential to produce an extremely high volume of booze. I too am in the planning stages of building a still. It was highly recommended to me that I limit my size to a max. of 20 gallons, as "anything larger is NOT a hobby" then it was rather quickly assumed that I would be selling my potential booze. This still your talking about doesn't sound simple to run and def. not for the beginner. I would suggest starting with something pretty basic and easy to run. But then again what do I know, I have never done it. I am very much in the same boat your in. I was thinking about building a 150 gallon still. It was quickly pointed out that it will produce a tremendous amount of liquor. I am not really seeing much difference between the two here. Both should have the ability to make a high volume of booze.

[dullfig]

ok, perhaps you're right. I should start with one of the simpler designs

[Maritimer]

It's always interesting to see the progress of thought in a thread.

Dullfig is new to distilling and is in that wonderful stage of first love and infatuation. This topic is so vast and interesting. He knows a little about refining and comes across the continuous still.

NZChris and heartcut are a little trepidatious, warning dullfig that this particular still is for fuel, but heartcut finds the idea intriguing.

Edwin is off to the races. He has been learning about the ABV dependent relative volatility of the other alcohols in the wash (or low wines) and the column. The continuous still has an advantage here. This could open up some interesting possibilities for discussion.

Heartcut is getting into the jist of the discussion. It'd be expensive and fun.

Woodpile wants to know more about Edwin's research into volatility.

Emptyglass gets down to the reality of feeding a continuous still. It is a voracious beast.

Dullfig reminds readers that it is the concept that interests him.

Edwin replies: It is not a challenge build a continuous still, the challenge is to build a very small continuous still. Edwin loves intellectual challenges.

Now things start to take a different turn. Dr P has heard it all before. Put up or shut up, basically.

Edwin is unperturbed, presenting lots of citations for the other products of fermentation.

And now rad offers his aggressive denunciation of the whole concept of continuous stills, and ends with: Or you can be yet another new member trying to prove everyone wrong about continuous distillation, and you would be the first to do so if successful...

This is what I call a Rad-trap. WTF? Best to ignore it. If you respond, you've fallen in.

And drinkingdog pats the dirt on the grave.

Irishbull reluctantly helps with the burial.

And dullfig, put in his place, quietly goes away.

There are two forces competing: imagination and current reality. The novices and the intellectuals are excited by the potential, and the old timers are quick to put down ideas that they cannot see changed.

M

[Scarfinger]

An enjoyable read.

I liked the recap by Maritimer

[Edwin Croissant]

Maritimer, an excellent analysis of this thread

dullfig, don't be scared away, please tell us what your first impression is. It must be something like: “What is hanging from my bike now?” (Thats Dunglish for “What’s going on?”) We are a nice bunch of nutjobs don't you think ?

Thank you for mentioning the Charles 803. It is the earliest marriage of of bubble ball with an external drain and a column I have seen now.

The plan I have is not for a continuous still and I can't find any references if the continuous modification was ever done to such still. All the Charles 803's I came across with Google are discontinuous. So I wonder why the 803 is automatically regarded as a continuous still? dullfig, do the plans you bought mentions a reboiler and a mash preheater and a mash pump?

[Jimbo]

Maritimer, That was a very insightful and entertaining synopsis of how many threads seem to progress around here. Especially threads where people are trying to think outside the box or be innovative. Counterpoint and devils advocate perspectives initially appear rude and deflating, but with the right perspective something can be learned from them too. They may point out challenges or slow people down from potentially driving straight off the cliff fueled on gleefully ignorant blind ambition.

Anyway, what Im saying is everyone should take everything anybody says with a grain of salt, especially in a forum, which by definition is a collection of opinion, but should also look for the nuggets of wisdom in everything said, even if you dont agree with the statement as a whole. The older I get the more I realize how little I know and how I can learn something from virtually anybody.

[heartcut]

Had to come back and read Maritimer's chronology again. Great!

[Prairiepiss]

I've never claimed to be a doctor? LOL

[emptyglass]

Dullfig reminds readers that it is the concept that interests him.


There are two forces competing: imagination and current reality. The novices and the intellectuals are excited by the potential, and the old timers are quick to put down ideas that they cannot see changed.

M

I love the concept of a continuous still. I ilke how new ideas can steer us all.

I think what really happens (or at least it did to me) is getting a step ahead of one's self.
If the old timers cast their mind back to when they didn't understand that to make good juice, you gotta make good cuts. How do I make a cut? what is a cut? Does it matter?
And if the new guys think for just a second, why am I the one asking the question? Why am I asking the same thing that others have asked? Is there a sort of to the point answer?

Don't give up Dullfig, but don't try and go too far
Then all will accept this question comes up, and why its answered the same way.

I'd love to see a hobby size working continuous still. Like rad, I'm happy to see a design presented that looks like it'd work, but you gotta ask is it just for making my own bootleg, or am I going into business?
Again, in which case, the marketing, premises, legal status, suppliers, all have to be taken into consideration.

Or you can easy enough take a known design from here and make some cracking good product. Hobby distilling aint a quick fix for the store, but it will give you back what you put in

[rad14701]

As pointed out by emptyglass, there is good reason why we seem to always be giving the same advice over and over again here in these forums... Read as much as some of us have and you'll all know why - because the topics have been beaten into the ground and don't merit repeating for the XXXth time with every bit of detail being repeated every time... If we were wrong someone would have already proven us wrong and the reason we haven't is because we aren't...

I have just about every Charles 803 design ever published on the internet and surely didn't need to purchase plans... Having been familiar with the design for over 30 years, and having entertained building one more than a few times, I know how they are supposed to work and could probably build one at this point without even referring to plans... While it can be modified to run in batch mode it was originally designed to run continuous... I won't go deeper into the details because it's all be said before... There are far better continuous designs out there that are also less expensive to build and operate... But they would be best used for stripping runs due to the inability to make decent cuts, if at all... One would be better off finding a suitable batch mode reflux column to build and be content... Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of a continuous stripper... I just don't see using a continuous column as being a viable option for decent spirits without doing a subsequent batch run to make decent cuts...

[dullfig]

So the challenge with a continuous still is to somehow take out the bad stuff that you would normally take out by making cuts. The fusil oils for example, seem to collect at the bottom of the column, so you may need a side stream at that point. I'm just saying

And don't worry, it's definitely a hobby. It's just I'm the inventor type, and thinking of how to solve the problem of continuous distillation gets me going

[Jimbo]

So the challenge with a continuous still is to somehow take out the bad stuff that you would normally take out by making cuts. The fusil oils for example, seem to collect at the bottom of the column, so you may need a side stream at that point. I'm just saying

And don't worry, it's definitely a hobby. It's just I'm the inventor type, and thinking of how to solve the problem of continuous distillation gets me going

So I think you know the shortcomings and concerns now, from the guys that have spent time doing some research. So if youre the inventor type, try and crack this nut, and if successful, post up. We'd all love to see a solution to the problems highlighted. If nothing else you'll learn a hell of a lot in the process. Its a formidable task, the big boys would love to make good hooch in one run, continuously. They invest millions in huge continuous distillation columns and either cask up headsy crap or just use them to strip and then do a spirit run in potstills.

[Maritimer]

I've never claimed to be a doctor? LOL

Dr P, that's a PhD, not a medical doctor. Such titles are bestowed, not claimed.

It's just I'm the inventor type, and thinking of how to solve the problem of continuous distillation gets me going

Welcome. It's gonna be fun!

M