Bicycle innertube

[IdahoStiller]

There was some discussion in the welcome forum that turned to Rainier stills and his use of bicycle innertubes for gaskets. Found this video of him talking about his still and he points out the rubber gasket. He claims it is safe although I would never do it. He states what type of rubber it is but I couldn't quite make it out. The volume is pretty low on the laptop. If someone can make out what he is saying we could look into it a bit more. Is it a new material we could use or one we should be sure to avoid (more likely)?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x7Kf4UszjY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[T-Pee]

I think he said "EPM rubber" also referred to as EPDM. Here's some links I found:

http://www.iisrp.com/webpolymers/10epdmsep11.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene_propylene_rubber" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
http://www.jjshort.com/Rubber-Properties.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPDM_rubber" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

tp

[Bob Loblaw]

EPDM is the stuff they use for pool liners and some roofing applications. I had it put on a flat roof house once. Worked great for that. Not sure how well it works as a gasket. But it's not bicycle inner tubes.

[thecroweater]

Rubber tubes as gaskets, really? well least its in the safety subbie but I do feel you know the correct answer

[Prairiepiss]

I would trust anyone that has a pic of himself. That looks like the ones he has posted of him. All over his website. Lol.

[corene1]

I have ridden bikes for many years and all the inner tubes I have used have been made of Butyl Rubber. There were a few types made of latex , but were very expensive and not well received. You could tell the difference as the butyl tubes are black and the latex tubes were pink. Either way I can't imagine using them for gaskets on a still. There are too many better choices for gaskets.
Give this a read and decide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butyl_rubber" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[bearriver]

Yeah, it was me that made that comment in the other thread. While I don't know if he still sells stills with them, I do know he used to do it. He has a series of YouTube videos documenting his builds where you can watch him cut the bicycle inner tube, proudly call it as such, and then stretch it over the Sanke fitting. Very sad shape indeed considering it was butyl rubber, the stuff that will burn your nose hairs out of your skull sniffing it. It's a shame that this has damaged his reputation because he has done excellent work, and takes a lot of pride in his builds.

As far as the EPDM gasket goes, I have one on my soon to be mash tun that came glued into the drum's lid. While I'm not overly concerned with it because it's not a still boiler, I'll still replace it with a homemade teflon gasket for giggles. It took several different solvent attempts before finding one that could remove the glue they used to stick it on there.

[thecroweater]

yeah ya see a lot of ppl doing a lot of shit on youtube, don't always mean its smart or worth copying
example

[IdahoStiller]

Last week I saw one of his boilers that was delivered to my LHBS and it had the innertube gasket. That is what prompted me to dig into it a bit more. And you are right Bear, he does do nice work so I don't understand why he doesn't use a decent gasket. You can get them for less than $2.

[Beerbrewer]

yeah ya see a lot of ppl doing a lot of shit on youtube, don't always mean its smart or worth copying
example

Fucking ouch, how has the genepool not removed this person?

[Tokoroa_Shiner]

yeah ya see a lot of ppl doing a lot of shit on youtube, don't always mean its smart or worth copying
example

+1

[W Pappy]

yeah ya see a lot of ppl doing a lot of shit on youtube, don't always mean its smart or worth copying
example

Hahahahahaha that is some funny shit bout pissed myself.

[IdahoStiller]

Technical Data sheet
SEAT MATERIAL - EPDM
T.D.S No - 50/52 - 105/ R1
Page 1 of 1
Date - NOV 2004
Ethylene Propylene Diene Monomer (EPDM) :
EPDM is the abbreviated name for Ethylene Propylene Diene Monomer. In general industry, one may see
other abbreviations or trade names such as EPT, Nordel®, ECD, or EPR. All of these are the same material
as EPDM.
EPDM is the standard seat material offered in the resilient seated DelTech butterfly valves. It is the most
universal and economical of seat materials.
General characteristics :
- Temperature ranges from -130
F (- 250
C) to 2500
F (1200
C).
- Excellent abrasion resistance.
- Good resistance to tearing.
- Generally resistant to the following media :
Alcohols, Acidic salts, Alkaline salts, Alkaline solutions, Beverages, Bleach, Inorganic acids (dilute)
Neutral salts, Water (cooling, brackish, salt), Hot Water, Steam.
- Generally not resistant to the following media :
Chlorinated hydrocarbons, hydrocarbon solvents & oils, petroleum-based oils, turpentine.

I don't know why, or if, a bicycle tire innertube is made from EPDM rubber or not but it looks like EPDM would be safe.

[planethax]

Technical Data sheet
........
- Generally resistant to the following media :
Alcohols, Acidic salts, Alkaline salts, Alkaline solutions, Beverages, Bleach, Inorganic acids (dilute)
Neutral salts, Water (cooling, brackish, salt), Hot Water, Steam.
-.........

Personally "generally" is not a term that instills my confidence in a product, especially one that is in constant contact with hot and high abv alcohol.

I would refer this to rules we live by #8 still.
My opinion.

[googe]

There's lots of different colours of the same type materials to, colours leach, most data won't differentiate. where did you get that data idahostiller?. always looking for new places like that with that sort of info.

[rad14701]

Technical Data sheet
........
- Generally resistant to the following media :
Alcohols, Acidic salts, Alkaline salts, Alkaline solutions, Beverages, Bleach, Inorganic acids (dilute)
Neutral salts, Water (cooling, brackish, salt), Hot Water, Steam.
-.........

Personally "generally" is not a term that instills my confidence in a product, especially one that is in constant contact with hot and high abv alcohol.

I would refer this to rules we live by #8 still.
My opinion.

I agree 100%... "Generally" doesn't quite cut it from a safety aspect... I don't see any mention of acetone or any of the other non-alcohol components present in the boiler that mingles with the distillate vapor... So while EPDM "may" seem safe, I'd rank it just as questionable as aluminum, RTV sealer, and a plethora of other materials that we just can't be totally sure about... Not to mention that when people see one potentially safe material they tend to consider it a blanket approval for anything that remotely looks similar...

[IdahoStiller]

I did a google search for "data sheet epdm".
I also asked the folks at J.J Short Associates Inc if EPDM was a suitable material in a high temp, high ethanol environment such as an ethanol fuel still. Their response was....."Depends common EPDM are A rated in 100% ethanol up to 200F meaning <15% swelling and loss of tensile strength with little to no chemical attack"
"Depends" doesn't fill one with confidence but I didn't want to take up any more of their time with more questions from some one that will never be a customer of theirs.

I did some more "googling" this morning and I found food grade EPDM sheets but they are white in color, not black.
Also found this:
Ethylene Propylene

Description

Ethylene-Propylene rubber is a low cost, versatile compound that functions well in both low and high operating temperature environments. Moderate to good resistance to a variety of chemicals make it the compound of choice for a variety of applications. EPDM's chemically saturated polymer chain accounts for its superior resistance to degradation. However, use is limited by its incompatibility with petroleum based fluids. EPDM can be cured with sulfur or peroxide, although applications with high heat requirements should use peroxide cured compounds. Peroxide curing also produces vulcanizates with superior compression set than that of the sulfur cures. Reinforcing agents are especially important in Ethylene-Propylene polymers because it lacks gum strength. Therefore, high tensile and tear properties are achieved through high loading. EPDM is a terpolymer, not to be confused with the copolymer EPM, which can only be peroxide cured due to its completely saturated polymer backbone.
Composition

Ethylene Propylene
Physical Properties*

Excellent Good Fair Poor
Abrasion resistance •
Compression Set •
Elongation •
Flame resistance •
Gas permeability •
Low temperature flexibility •
Tear resistance •
Tensile strength •
Chemical Resistance*

Excellent Good Fair Poor
Alcohols •
Dilute acids •
Dilute alkalis •
Gasoline •
Hydraulic fluids •
Oxygenated solvents •
Ozone •
Petroleum oils and greases •
Steam •
Water •
Weather •
Operating Temperature

-65 to 300 °F
*Excellent, good, fair and poor are intended to serve as general guidelines only. Actual testing in the application environment is always recommended.

Chart didn't transfer very well. Resistance to alcohols is in the "good" column.
I was leaning toward a favorable opinion of EPDM until I saw the above chart. PTFE is clearly a superior choice for gasket material. Sorry Anthony

[TDS]

EPDM gaskets are crap, and the Teflon ones cost pennies more each.
If you're buying the prefab ones for triclamp junctions. Teflon ones last virtually forever too.
A bicycle inner tube contacting your hot likker could kill you.
It'll at least make you real sick.
Cheers!

[Texasboy1894]

HAHAHAHA I just watched that dumbass jump into a cactus and it made my freaking day.