Lava Rock information

[Hound Dog]

I have seen many people starting to use Lava Rock now but find information kind of scattered on the subject. I first caught wind of it with a post on column packing by Mash Rookie. I tried some in a 2" x 3' column that has a centering ring on an LM rig running on a propane burner. I broke up some rock that was for a gas grill and was a mix of red and black. I rinsed and boiled it a few times until the water stayed clear before adding it.

This is a sample of what I broke up. I believe I should have made it a little smaller. There was no restriction in the column what so ever. In the past with copper mesh I had always had it so there was a bit of restriction in the pipe blowing trough it. When doing a run of All Bran low wines with this size of lava rock I could not get above 93%. With this same setup and tight copper mesh I was able to maintain 95% at about a quart an hour. This is why I believe smaller tighter packed rock may perform a bit better.

My next build will be a 3". I would like to hear what others think of their experiences with Lava Rock to judge what size pieces I should run.

Please chime in as to what you have been using and what your results are for all of us to learn from. This is just an attempt to consolidate information on this subject. Pictures would be appreciated!

[googe]

I have never used anything but lava rock so ave only my 3 plate still to compare it to. I use 1/2"~1.5" sizes, I found smaller and even this size was prone to some flooding, not enough to stress about though. My results are, it makes a much cleaner neutral at 90% through my LM on a single run than my plate column does after 2~3 runs at 93%. I've found it does channel with larger pieces.

[S-Cackalacky]

I'm interest in information about lava rock as well. I currently run a pot still, but have plans to build a CC-VM in the future and would like to use lava rock for the packing. Seems like size is an issue. Maybe this thread will help in figuring out the optimum size.

S-C

[Hound Dog]

I'm interest in information about lava rock as well. I currently run a pot still, but have plans to build a CC-VM in the future and would like to use lava rock for the packing. Seems like size is an
issue. Maybe this thread will help in figuring out the optimum size.

S-C

Yes! This is exactly what I am hoping to find. What size rocks for what size column.

Googe is having good results with larger sizes over plates, but in what size column Googe?

[googe]

4"

[friendly1uk]

I have concerns. I have read of people boiling it in water to clean it enough for ethanol production, which seems inadequate to me. Then there was talk about the orange coloured stuff that is laden with potassium, a reactive metal not on the list. Here is the black stuff that carries many metals with magnetic qualities. This stuff is very variable, but can contain anything present in the universe. A list a little longer than stainless, copper or ptfe.

You could be more specific and target pumice stone perhaps. Then get your distillate sampled. Pumice is more singular in it's construction, and if you knew where it was mined, associated reports might be available.

I'm to cautious to use something so variable, as this variability means it is not an exact science. To go further with this, I would visit a geology based forum. I don't think you could ever point to a bag and say it was safe though. It could be tainted with anything from the machine's that process it, It's not medical grade stuff.

[Hound Dog]

OK. One vote that the Lava Rock could contain toxins that will contaminate the poisonous ethanol we are making to ingest. Point well taken. You will not be using it.

I was hoping to keep the thread guided towards info on sizing and results from different still types so that those of us still interested in using it can learn from each other. No need to drag the thread down an argumentative path.

[The KYChemist]

I didn't see it as being argumentative. More along the lines of bringing up a point no one may have thought of. I, for one, is glad he did. With how much safety is stressed on this site, all I have read has never stressed a negative view towards lava rock.

[bonehead]

odin has a few posts about lava rocks and there size in the old thread called (Why I'm Tired of the CM Hating) look for a few posts where he wrote why he uses them and why they work for him. his posts are easy to find you can't miss his avatar when skimming through the posts. hope this helps.

[Hound Dog]

I didn't see it as being argumentative. More along the lines of bringing up a point no one may have thought of. I, for one, is glad he did. With how much safety is stressed on this site, all I have read has never stressed a negative view towards lava rock.

You are correct! He was not being argumentative at all, I did not mean it like that. He expressed a valid point. I have read other threads where people spent much time arguing this point the whole time.

[Prairiepiss]

There is a long thread with all the is it safe info. That you will ever want. The let's talk column packing thread started by mash rookie. And this thread is about sizing it for optimum use. So I would say its possible hazards have been pointed out here. And you should do some more research if you think you need to about that. And you can find more info on it in the other thread.

Now I will go back to something I've said before. And have been shut down in the past for. From the results I have read. I have noticed that 2" or smaller columns seam to work better with structured packing like Scrubbers. And 3" or larger columns benefit from the lava rock.

Again that's from reading others results. Which includes many others results not on this forum. I have not tested lava rock at all. So I can't say for positive.

[flyingdutchman]

Now I will go back to something I've said before. And have been shut down in the past for. From the results I have read. I have noticed that 2" or smaller columns seam to work better with structured packing like Scrubbers. And 3" or larger columns benefit from the lava rock.

I agree and do not see why this would be hard to accept.

When someone scales up column diameter why wouldn't other factors can come into play? Nixon writes in his book that above a 2" column diameter two additional things can greatly reduce the column efficiency. One is Channeling and the other is Turbulance. Perhaps the lava rock effects one or both of these in a positive way. That might explain why people see better results with lava rock in larger diameter columns but not in a 2 inch column.

[Hound Dog]

This is great information. I had assumed that my results in a 2" x 36" column being inferior to copper mesh was just due to size of the aggrigate. Perhaps it is just how it performs in a 2".

Has anyone else used lava rock in a 2"? If so what size rock and how tall of a column?

Any suggestions on sizes to use in a 3" column?

[FullySilenced]

3" setup with Scoria, inline thumper, two perf plates and 36" of nickel sized, packed 3" copper tubing with SD ez flanges on the end...

This is set up with a corrugated pipe deflagmator and a sliding arm condenser also made of corrugated ss piping.


This set up will product 95+ abv neutral without issue, at 2L an hour. The aired product is extremely smooth and drinkable as it comes off the still...

Hope this helps with our endeavor...

FS

[emptyglass]

I use a 24" long packed section on top of a 5 plate 4" flute, packed with about 18" of 32mm/1.25" large porous red lava rock, with about 3" of 12mm/0.5" fine stuff on top, leaving a 3" gap between the top of the rock and the bottom of the reflux condenser.

Provides great results and a nice clean neutral.

I've used it with pretty much the same results without the fine stuff on top. It will pull azeotrope easily and fast. If theres channeling it is not noticeable in the product or results, at least in 4" diameter anyway.

I'm surprised that some guys think the packed section should be before/under the plates in a plated column. Theres a good deal of theory to explain why it wont work, and a few guys with modular set ups that couldn't resist trying it can back up the theory. The scrubbing and cleaning properties of the rock work well in a purer alc mix, not so well on wash.

[Hound Dog]

Sounds like great results from guys with plates under the column. Nickel size in a 3" much larger working in the 4".

I usually strip my wash in my pot still before running low wines in my boka. The head off my boiler is 6" around by 12" high and my column attaches to the top of it. I wonder if it would be worth while on my new build to utilize this space by putting a bubble plate mid way in the head.

[dirtymax731]

[quote="Hound Dog"]

Has anyone else used lava rock in a 2"? If so what size rock and how tall of a column?



I tried lava rock on a 4ft 2" VM still and gotten better results a with structured packing
The pieces were all small. About a quater or so

[googe]

I'd back that up empty, under plates wasn't good. Just on you saying it doesn't work as well on a wash, I did a run with the packed section above my 3 plates, single run with kale wash and it came out solid 93% the entire run till tails and it's very clean.

[wv_cooker]

Ok I have done a considerable amount of testing Lava Rock with my 2" LM rig against copper mesh structured packing.Here are my results:

I used copper mesh in 36" packed column since I built the rig and always achieved 95% Abv with running it according to Huskers instructions in The New Distillers Reading Lounge. http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 63&t=13265
Next I broke my Lava rock into dime and nickel sized pieces and packed the column to 36". I shook the column to achieve good packing structure as packing should be structured within a column for maximum efficiency. Ran the same Birdwatchers wash that I ran with the copper packing most times by the same instructions as posted by Husker and the results were clean azeotropic neutral.

Next I reduced the copper to 16" and ran a UJ wash hoping to achieve good flavor as I have always believed that theoretical plates and actual Plates should achieve the same flavor profiles if ran the same. The results were 90% abv with good flavor.
I then packed the column with 16" of Lava Rock the same sizes as before and ran another UJ wash to see what the difference would be to my surprise I got pretty much the same results, 90% with good flavor.

I then built a 4 plate, plated column and ran some UJ, It achieved 93% with full flavor. The differences in flavor from plates and theoretical plates in my belief is more in the different ways that each still runs as opposed to packing or Plates. A flute or plated column is very efficient at making flavors in it's standard configuration.

I am currently building a 36" x 4" column to use with Lava Rock or structured copper mesh packing to test and will soon build modular sections for the plated column to also test with plates and packing.

If you wish to make both neutrals and Flavors from the same rig I believe a modular rig will do the best job as it can be changed to work for either configuration.

As for Lava Rock I have seen where Dad300 believes that the Hetp is somewhere around 15 plates to the meter. Not knowing how to calculate this I am of similar belief maybe just a little more.

As for 2" columns I believe it can be more efficient however we must take all variables into consideration when packing the column and it becomes more efficient with height in the column. As for 3" and larger everything I have read from anyone who has tried it has given good results especially in cleaner product.

Will post a pick of my rock tomorrow after all it is Christmas lol. Merry Christmas to all.

[Richard7]

I have had very good results using lava rock in a 2" although I have to pay very close attention starting up because I sized my rocks quite small and if I apply too much heat I will get flooding. Here is a sample of sizing of my rocks.....

I made most of them not much bigger than the penny and included smaller ones as well. I really need to dump them out and be more selective with the size to make it less prone to flooding.
The thing I like about the rocks over the copper packing is I can run my still faster and still get a good ABV and save on propane. If I collect too slow and run a lot of reflux it is verrrrry neutral and way high ABV. Some are after that, and thats fine if you are making a vodka, but I like to collect around 75% ABV and still have a little flavor left.
Here is my lava rock thread. http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 17&t=42499

Merry Christmas!

[emptyglass]

I guess its anecdotal at this stage, but it seems 2" columns can be prone to flooding using fine lava rock, 3" columns the jurys out on, and 4" columns benefit a great deal from it.

Googe, not saying its no good on wash, but it can work better if used right, as you and others have found. Like PP said, it does work well when presented with a high abv to start with.

I think the point of lava rock containing contaminates is mute, as a lot of our food stuffs contain metals from the machinery that its processed on, but that's just my opinion and really not relevant to this thread.

[Hound Dog]

You guys have really put up some good info. Good job on the experimenting WV! It looks to me like we can get good performance out of all diameters of columns but the size of the rock plays the biggest part in this. To small and it floods as Richard7 found, to large and you can't get the purity as I found out. Seems nickel and dime size carefully selected and packed in a 2" is just right as WV worked out.

Everyone putting it in a column over plates seems to be doing well. I found the post by Odin that Bonehead referred to (thanks BH) quite interesting. Seems Odin has been messing with rock for quite a while and had great results in a CM.

Odin, if you are out there reading this, do you have any recent updates? You always have interesting experiments going on! I know you are the SPP man, how does it compare? Price wise it is the other side of the planet!

[wv_cooker]

When using any structured packing results can vary tremendously just due to the simple fact of the way each individual runs their rig. You also must take into effect all the variables involved in the type of still that you have. This product is just becoming a viable idea for packing and will take some experimenting by each individual using it. Though I got some decent results with it in my 2" I was also happy with my results with copper mesh. Personally I like it for it's ability in a 4" column more so than 2". Diameter and speed of take off seems to be the chase now a days. Folks are tired of 6 to 8 hour runs and even longer for some. So if you are keen to use it by all means go for it and let us know your results.

[rad14701]

<SNIP>

Next I reduced the copper to 16" and ran a UJ wash hoping to achieve good flavor as I have always believed that theoretical plates and actual Plates should achieve the same flavor profiles if ran the same. The results were 90% abv with good flavor.

<SNIP>

I then built a 4 plate, plated column and ran some UJ, It achieved 93% with full flavor. The differences in flavor from plates and theoretical plates in my belief is more in the different ways that each still runs as opposed to packing or Plates.

<SNIP>

There will be a difference in flavor profile and overall purity from different types of structured packing and plates due to differences in molecular interaction... For example, a true plate may only have X amount of liquid retention as a filter whereas lava rock, scrubbers, SPP, etc, has continuous contact... This is why the HETP calculator on the parent site compares other materials to plates... There is still a variable as to the "plate" configuration, however... But I digress...

[friendly1uk]

OK. One vote that the Lava Rock could contain toxins that will contaminate the poisonous ethanol we are making to ingest. Point well taken. You will not be using it.

I was hoping to keep the thread guided towards info on sizing and results from different still types so that those of us still interested in using it can learn from each other. No need to drag the thread down an argumentative path.

Oh no, I'm not being argumentative. I had no idea from the title or your post that packing was all you wanted to talk about. Your reply is argumentative mind, but I can't be bothered.



The porosity of lava rock is to variable for much meaningful discussion. This is why I would use it, but would be more specific. Pumice won't pool anything like most other types and is more singular in it's makeup. I would start there.

Would such packing be consistent over time though. You could have it just right, then it gets puked on. The rocks displacement meaning the foam climbed higher. With my history of foaming I perhaps should avoid this. My packing goals seem at odds with my cleaning goals.

[bearriver]

I hand picked the most porous lava rocks I could get from 3 bags then discarded maybe %80 of the stones that I thought were not very porous. After that I busted up the rocks so that no pieces were larger than a nickle. Most of them are dime sized or smaller.

Results: Compared to 3M scrubbers the lava rock gave me faster takeoff rates producing the same quality neutral.

However unlike the scrubbers, in my 3" column using a propane Banjo burner I could not get the column to flood. Even with the takeoff valve fully closed and the propane valve wide open, I could not acheive flooding conditions. I am looking forward to trying this with a much more powerful 5500 watt electric keg, so I can find how much reflux this stuff can handle.

Will post more detailed results after more testing, which will have to share my time with marble testing...

[DAD300]

Very timely bearriver...I just posted about the insulation qualities of lava/pumice and understand that it would take more power. While lava's texture has the ability to hold a lot of liquid and make for great liquid/vapor interaction, it is a great insulator.

I proposed it would take more power...

[wv_cooker]

<SNIP>

Next I reduced the copper to 16" and ran a UJ wash hoping to achieve good flavor as I have always believed that theoretical plates and actual Plates should achieve the same flavor profiles if ran the same. The results were 90% abv with good flavor.

<SNIP>

I then built a 4 plate, plated column and ran some UJ, It achieved 93% with full flavor. The differences in flavor from plates and theoretical plates in my belief is more in the different ways that each still runs as opposed to packing or Plates.

<SNIP>

There will be a difference in flavor profile and overall purity from different types of structured packing and plates due to differences in molecular interaction... For example, a true plate may only have X amount of liquid retention as a filter whereas lava rock, scrubbers, SPP, etc, has continuous contact... This is why the HETP calculator on the parent site compares other materials to plates... There is still a variable as to the "plate" configuration, however... But I digress...

About forgot about this thread.

Absolutely right Rad the continuous contact between vapor and liquid does make the difference in flavor profile. But if you reverse that and have deeper liquid beds on real plates and match the numbers you could get real close to the same thing from each theoretically. now knowing every still does things slightly differently I doubt you could make exactly the same profile but you could get so close it wouldn't be noticeable.

[Hound Dog]

I hand picked the most porous lava rocks I could get from 3 bags then discarded maybe %80 of the stones that I thought were not very porous. After that I busted up the rocks so that no pieces were larger than a nickle. Most of them are dime sized or smaller.

Results: Compared to 3M scrubbers the lava rock gave me faster takeoff rates producing the same quality neutral.

However unlike the scrubbers, in my 3" column using a propane Banjo burner I could not get the column to flood. Even with the takeoff valve fully closed and the propane valve wide open, I could not achieve flooding conditions. I am looking forward to trying this with a much more powerful 5500 watt electric keg, so I can find how much reflux this stuff can handle.

Will post more detailed results after more testing, which will have to share my time with marble testing...

I am surprised to hear that Bear. Our columns are similar. I heat with a generic turkey fryer burner. I did not achieve flood levels at first but when I broke them up smaller I hit it just right. Like yours, nickel and dime sized. Using red rock. I can easily get a flood right on top of the packing with 3/4 power then cut it back till I hear and feel the flood level a little down the column. I have not run mesh in the 3" column for a comparison though. Just had good results with what I got.

[badbird]

Have you noticed a performance sweet spot at the verge of flooding like the SPP users talk about?
I use scoria around quarter to dime size in a 4" column with up to 4800w but haven't experienced any flooding under normal conditions so cant try it out.