Is it OK to allow all of the heads in on a pure sugar wash?

[Right Lightning]

From what I understand, pure [cane] sugar wash doesnot/cannot produce ANY methanol, other than maybe a very slight "trace" amount, probably due to impurities. So I'm assumming it's OK to leave everything at the beginning (heads) of the run go into the product. I'm talking VERY small scale here, never exceeding 5 quarts of sugar-only wash per run (it takes 5 runs to do 1 single fermer batch). Now if THAT is agreed upon, how about this:

Again, from what I understand, there is only 1 other "undesirable" product besides methanol, that comes off BEFORE (a-HEAD-of) the ethanol. And IIRC, that is ethyl acetate. I don't know much about it, but haven't heard anything about it being toxic enough [in the quantities that ARE produced] to give me any real concerns. But I think it "might" be slightly affecting the taste, but predominantly the AROMA of the product, making it seem a little "hotter" than it actually is. Since I have only run [and DID drink] 1 (fermer) batch of product (about 116oz alcohol) so far, it's possible that I could be "noticing" something that isn't even really happening. But if it IS, I could really use some reassurance that it is nothing to be concerned about. Now check THIS out:

Believe it or not, THAT "aroma" IS actually a familliar one. But I didn't even realize it until THIS happened: Yup, I'm talking about the almost-entirely-subconcious olfactory flashback phenomenon, that put me in an EXACT spot, for a so-quick-that-I-could-have-missed-it instant in time. It happened when I recently opened up a freshly made jar, and must have been within the first couple of milliseconds of picking up on the head-end of the "aroma cloud" that wasted no time in spreading, once the lid was unscrewed. Not entirely surprizingly, the olfactory flashback was of me standing in the doorway of the liquer store, with 1 foot in, just after opening the door. What IS surprising, is that there's no way that I could have recalled a memory like that, any other way. And it forces me to believe that there is zero possibility that I could have been mistaking one thing for something else. So if ethyl acetate or not, apparently it is in ALL distilled beverages.

If I let the fresh stuff "air" (gas off) for 10-15 minutes, it does seem to reduce that particular odor. I think doing so might also help lift any traces of methanol out of it, if there happens to be any. But air it too long, and it will suck up too much moisture, right?

Back to the original question, is airing-out (as in: offering up the light ethyl acetates and methyl alcohols to the "angels") sufficient for removing heads collected from a sugar-only wash, from a safety standpoint?

[rad14701]

Fermenting and distilling small batches is no excuse for not making proper cuts... You will still have Foreshots, Heads, Hearts, and Tails cuts... Don't ever think you can take shortcuts in this hobby... If you think your wash is too small to need to make cuts then perhaps you should scale things up to a more realistic size... We take safety very seriously here, and you should too...

[bellybuster]

I can't directly answer your question without doing the research that you could come up with the answer yourself with.
However, I can tell you that even a sugar only wash without cuts is gonna give you a crap product. Whats the point of even distilling your own product if all you want is crap. You can buy that at the store. Unless you're in Canada, you can probably even buy it cheaper.

[Doogie]

Some things to consider:
http://homedistiller.org/distill/dtw/toss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
http://homedistiller.org/distill/dtw/foreshots" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
http://homedistiller.org/intro/methanol/methanol" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I assume you are not using a reflux still with such small capacity. Yes, sugar washes have little or no methanol, but my limited understanding this can be affected by fermentation temperatures, starting SG (if you crank it high), yeast, etc, etc. You would have to verify that you are not introducing an environment that would boost this.

I have also heard (and do myself) air out likker for a day to improve flavor. Dunno if 10-15min would work, but then again, I do not make small quantities.

Realize also, "heads" is a cut stage that comes after "foreshots", and are not grouped together - they are separate. In potstills, they will blend together as the transition from fores to heads, and from heads to hearts - this is why they state removing 100-200ml for fores per 20L is advised - but since you are distilling less than 5L/attempt, this toss should be only 22.5 to 45ml of liquid - a very small amount to "waste" considering a possible safety issue.

Further, the airing out, I believe is not a "suck up moisture" issue (maybe you are considering that anything over 96% will "suck up moisture"?). But if you are thinking this will "evaporate" off the bad stuff, why not simply remove it in the first place??

But then again, we are all trying to make save, quality likker right? Why even include stuff that will rock your noggin hard the follow morning??? You like headaches, puking and feeling like shit for a day? Cut out some heads too ...

[Doogie]

On a side note to what Rad stated - if your wash is too small to make cuts with, then either get a bigger unit, or possibly distill to low wines, then do a final distillation - this should allow you to do a final distill on 3-4 wash low wines ... and also allow you to make safe cuts for fores ...

... and then like belly stated, make proper cuts to get better product

[Prairiepiss]

If you want a crappy product. And a nice headache the next day. Or even the same day. Then sure you can collect all the heads hearts and tails and drink it. I wouldn't recommend drinking heads straight up. Ever.

But if you want to make a good product. Then no you need to cut them out.

And carbon filtering is not the answer either.

Proper fermentation with a good recipe. And making proper cuts. Is the correct way to do it.

Greed has no place in this hobby.

[skow69]

Believe it or not, THAT "aroma" IS actually a familliar one. But I didn't even realize it until THIS happened: Yup, I'm talking about the almost-entirely-subconcious olfactory flashback phenomenon, that put me in an EXACT spot, for a so-quick-that-I-could-have-missed-it instant in time. It happened when I recently opened up a freshly made jar, and must have been within the first couple of milliseconds of picking up on the head-end of the "aroma cloud" that wasted no time in spreading, once the lid was unscrewed. Not entirely surprizingly, the olfactory flashback was of me standing in the doorway of the liquer store, with 1 foot in, just after opening the door. What IS surprising, is that there's no way that I could have recalled a memory like that, any other way. And it forces me to believe that there is zero possibility that I could have been mistaking one thing for something else. So if ethyl acetate or not, apparently it is in ALL distilled beverages.

Most liquor stores keep the bottles sealed. I'm not sure I would buy from a place where you can smell the booze as you walk in.

[Bob Loblaw]

Most liquor stores keep the bottles sealed. I'm not sure I would buy from a place where you can smell the booze as you walk in.

or only the bottom shelf stuff gets broken...

[Right Lightning]

Most liquor stores keep the bottles sealed. I'm not sure I would buy from a place where you can smell the booze as you walk in.

Hey, it isn't like I EVER "concienciously" remember thinking that i was smelling alcohol when i walked in to a liquer store.

That's why I thought ethyl acetate - it would come off first (ahead of the methanol and then ethanol), and be the hardest to keep it's aroma all "bottled up"! I give it a "terpentine-ish" off-taste (I meant off-smell), that the better ethanol doesn't have. I not finished running 2nd 5L batch, but took 30ml off both of them, because had bad "washy" smell. 2nd batch pulloff was 2 15ml "samples", but both both had bad smell. So definitely need to keep taking at least 30, maybe even 45, as was suggested. You can get a pretty good idea when somebody has been through the exact same thing that you are experiencing, and can save you some trouble!

Now, how exciting does "fresh data" sound? This ferm batch was only 15lb of sug though, instead of 20 like the previous one. The yield comes up "considerably" lower proof per liter, if cutoff is same at 1l. So lesson learned is that the 20# WAS being fully utilized - and go with that next time.

Anyways, it is the first 1000ml, from a 5l wash, with the first 30ml removed. Came up at 88 proof. In terms of cleanliness (PPM/TDS), it scores a single digit (9)! I'm not seeing that as something that ANYONE could possibly pitch a beef about. And with a 20# batch, I'm thinking could possibly get 5 or lower. You GOTTA be into primo stuff at THAT point, no?

[rad14701]

Now, how exciting does "fresh data" sound? This ferm batch was only 15lb of sug though, instead of 20 like the previous one. The yield comes up "considerably" lower proof per liter, if cutoff is same at 1l. So lesson learned is that the 20# WAS being fully utilized - and go with that next time.

Anyways, it is the first 1000ml, from a 5l wash, with the first 30ml removed. Came up at 88 proof. In terms of cleanliness (PPM/TDS), it scores a single digit (9)! I'm not seeing that as something that ANYONE could possibly pitch a beef about. And with a 20# batch, I'm thinking could possibly get 5 or lower. You GOTTA be into primo stuff at THAT point, no?

Not really getting what you're going on about there... Talking 15 pounds instead of 20 pounds in how large of a volume of wash...??? What are you using as nutrients...??? As for your discussion of ratings, not a clue what that all means... Are you using an actual recipe and, if so, what is it...???

[Prairiepiss]

I'm also a little lost?

Not real sure what you expect a tds meter to tell you either?

[Doogie]

I'm also a little lost?

Not real sure what you expect a tds meter to tell you either?

I think we are all lost a bit here.

PPM/TDS - not familiar with this, nor how it quantifies "purity" or "quality" - please post some information because this may be usable by novice distillers to make cuts.

You got 1L of usable likker out of 5L of wash???? How much tails? How much heads, or is that value "no cuts". If so, highly doubt if this TDS/PPM thingie said it was it was clean or pure, since you would have to produced a wash around 30%+ (just guessing). Were you boosting with feints in addition to the 5L??

*very confused*

[Prairiepiss]

A tds meter measures Total Dissolved Solids. In the ppm parts per million range. I have one. Use it for testing water from my RO unit. So I know when to change the filter.

But I have no clue what it would be good for testing distilled spirits? They will have very little tds in them. The stuff that makes up the bad stuffs in fores heads and tails. Aren't dissolved solids. They are liquid compounds.

[Doogie]

Ah, ok - yes I understand now. I usually change the RO filters when the wife bitches about how her princess water tastes.

A TDS and PPM, without knowing them would seem absolutely useless for this, IMHO. Unless you wanted to ensure the unit did not puke, but that would be evident enough.

Ya, have to agree with Mr. Piss on this one (not that I am saying agreeing with you is unfavorable )

[Right Lightning]

A tds meter measures Total Dissolved Solids. In the ppm parts per million range. I have one. Use it for testing water from my RO unit. So I know when to change the filter.

But I have no clue what it would be good for testing distilled spirits? They will have very little tds in them. The stuff that makes up the bad stuffs in fores heads and tails. Aren't dissolved solids. They are liquid compounds.

That's exactly the reason I have one. And a pH meter also.

Not sure exactly how relevent TDS data is in this field of study. But I figured that since it IS data that I CAN collect, I will, just in case it DOES offer additional insight into what is going on. I do have to admit that I have yet to see it so much as even mentioned by anyone else here. So I do understand the "WTF is he talking about?" attitude. But I definately AM seeing a strong correlation between high quality stuff (especially double X) having very low TDS numbers, and the high TDS readings in the crap low proof "tailings" that NEED to be re-X'd. Since the data that I am about to present IS genuine realtime, I'll say the #'s before my mind forgets them. Then I will jump off of the TDS horse.

This is my 2nd "bucket load" of wash. This time I used 45g of T48 and 15lb of sugar (added to 5gal of alkalinity compensated RO water, maintained between 75 and 90F). And total yield only came out to 70oz of ethanol. The first batch, which used 135g of T48 and 20lb of sugar, yielded 115oz. A bucket load must be split into 5 5l "cooker" runs, where this time (due to the weaker wash) I stopped at 1l of product. But then I switch to another container to collect another 1/2l, totalling 2.5l [in 5 runs] of low-yield stuff to re-run, calling it the 6th (and final) run for the batch (that is what is NOW currently running).

Beginning witht the 3rd run of the batch, I started pulling an additinnal 15ml off of the top, totalling 45ml. I'm referring to it as the "forejigger" (1.5 shot). TDS wise, The pulled-off forejigger went 17. When the cut was made at 1l, the following jigger (1st of the low-yield 500ml) read 15. The hearts went 9, running 88p. The much-weaker-than-last-time wash came in at 320ppm. The destined-for-re-run stuff was 40ppm, with a strength of 20p. The first 45ml jigger of re-run came up 3ppm, and it did have some wash smell at first. But after allowing it to air for about 5 minutes, it smelled very clean, so I added it back in.

Since I experienced a net loss in the amount of ethanol produced, per lb of sugar used (in addition to the reduction caused by using less sugar), that is that an indication that 45g of T48 is NOT sufficient, right?

[Prairiepiss]

It's hard to say. Because you aren't giving us enough info about the ferments. Like SG readings would be nice.

You're trying to guess by what you get from the still. When you can test the ferment itself with a hydrometer. And figure it out much easier. And more accurate. Not that it needs to be all that accurate.

The amount of alcohol you get. Is determined on how much sugar is used. And how much of that sugar is consumed by the yeast. So if you make two washes both with x amount of sugar. But one doesn't finish all the way. And the other does. You will get mote alcohol from the one that finishes off good.

The amount of yeast has no bearing on how much alcohol is made. It will only make a difference in the time it takes. And the flavors you get. Unless you over stress the yeast with to much sugar. Then it won't finish all the way. And make more crap alcohol.

Now I assume T-48 is a turbo 48 hour. Which is a completely different story. And not a good one. Because adding more you are also adding more nutrients. Nutrients you don't have because you are only using sugar. That doesn't provide any or enough nutrients for the yeast. So if you have a high sugar content a small amount won't finish good. The yeast will run out of nutrients. Before fermentation is done. Causing off flavors. If you use to much. The extra nutrients and the stress caused by to much sugar. Will impart off flavors.

I think I'm starting to see what you are trying to do. But you really should be using a hydrometer more then these other measuring devices. So you can understand the ferment better.

[Prairiepiss]

Oh by the way. A pure sugar wash. Is not attainable. There isn't enough nutrients in regular sugar for yeast to work right.

And using a turbo yeast isn't a pure sugar wash. Since the turbo yeast has so much commercial nutrients added in it.

[Right Lightning]

I thought it would be best to start out at the most basic level, in order to keep the variables that COULD cause things to go wrong to a minimum. That means holding off [for now] on attempting to concoct the "ideal" yeast/nutrient formulation. That's why I used turbo 48, which I figured would be a consistent and stable "standard" product to start off with. But it does cost about as much as the sugar itself, at over 8 bucks for a 135g pack, meant for doing 18lbs in a 25L fermenter in 5 days. I DO have a confession to make though. On my 1st attempt at fermenting ANYTHING, I went against better judgement & conventional wisdom, by NOT following the directions on the package exactly & putting "my" own spin on it, thinking I could get a full 20# to fully ferment. In comparing the ethanol yield to my 2nd batch, which only ran 1/3 the amount of the turbo (an attempt to reduce off-flavors & costs also), and 3/4 the amount of sugar, what I tried to achieve in that 1st batch MAY HAVE ACTUALLY WORKED (but I won't try to claim that I knew what I was doing!), when you compare 115oz for the 1st batch, with only 70oz, for the 2nd one. That first batch almost borders on making the 2nd batch look like a failure! The 2nd batch used 75% the amt of sug, but only returned 60% product, compared with the 1st batch. The procedure I used for the 1st batch was to dissolve 15# of sug in 5 gal [pH9-10] of RO water, adding 1/2 of the T48 packet, once the temp had reached 90F. Then heat was reduced to low setting after 12 hours, at which time the process is generating much of it's own heat. After 48 hours, the heat was switched back up to high, and 5 more lbs of sugar was added, followed by the other half of the T48 package. Twelve hours after that, the heat was again kicked down to low for about another 36 hours, until the reaction had slowed significantly, at which point the heat was switched back to high, for 2 more days (could probably go 3 [or more] though). Then the wash was allowed to settle & cool to 45F for 1 more day (unracked), before being cooked.

The one piece of data the I would like to be privvy to, is how much sug [if any] is there in the waste-wash, which gets dumped. I suppose that an SG hyrometer is the ticket here, and also to check the pre-still (post-ferm), and pre-ferm stages of the wash, as well. I do have an H2SO4 (battery) hydrometer lying around somewhere. Would that be usable?

Also, is there any "common", "typical" , or "standardized" home-brew yeast/nutrient formulation that is designed specifically for "neutral 'sugar' spirits" production (sugar-only mash/wash) that can be easily made, based on baker's yeast, such as Flieshman's?

P.S. What is a "normal" good yield supposed to be for a 25L bucket of pure sugar wash?

And by "pure sugar wash", I am referring to a wash that is devoid of any other "fermentable" substances, excluding the yeast AND the nutrients that it requires to be able do it's job.

[T-Pee]

Check out the Birdwatcher's recipe in Tried and True. Water, yeast, sugar and tomato paste (for yeast nutrient). About as basic as it's gonna get.

tp

[Prairiepiss]

Plus one on Birdwatchers. Ditch the turbo junk.

How much sugar is left. There shouldn't be any. You should be letting it all ferment out. But doing high gravity ferments like that. They have a better chance of not finishing.

Get a hydrometer. Get some good non turbo yeast. Find a recipe in the tried and true recipe section. Keep your ferments under 14% ABV max. 10% to 12% is better. 8% ABV is perfect in my book.

[Right Lightning]

I actually WAS checking that recipe out the other day.

My 1st batch yielded 6floz per lb of sugar, but it still seemed to have somewhatofa sweetish smell when I dumped it out. The 2nd one only went 5, so for sure some sugar was wasted in that one. By a high "gravity" fermet, I assume you mean high sugar saturation per unit of water. I figure the 1st batch had to be 20+%, and guessing that the 2nd only went maybe 12%. Honestly, I MUCH prefer a as-high-of-a-ABV-as-the yeast-will-tolerate wash, as it allows for obtaining considerably higher quantities of high-p (100+) product out of the first "trip" through the mill - or should I say, still? It results in less distillate that needs to go back through again. Remember, I am only running a basic 5qt e-hot-pot, without any reflux action. I'd would like to know WHY you consider only 8% to be ideal though. For ME, that translates to WAY too low overall yield per batch than I am willing to be hassled with, considering the amount of time that it takes each batch to "ferm up".

Obviously, the turbo yeast CAN handle 20%, but my big question is: What is the highest ABV that the bird watcher's recipe will handle? If it only goes 12- 14%, it's probably NOT going to cut for me. But IF it will handle 20% without dying out, I'll be ALL-IN on it. I have an eye that beholds "beauty", in simplicity. But also in the cost savings that would be enjoyed, over turbo. What is the "AG" that turbo yeast claims to have in it?

P.S. I'd like to go to the auto parts store and pick up a SG hydrometer (couldn't find the one that I used to have). I assume that the type which has the buoyant plastic pointer that pivots on a pin will work. But what SG range does it need to be able to cover?

[Tap]

It's SO nice of you to CAPITALISE all the things that you REALLY want us all to read.

I'm SERIOUS

[Prairiepiss]

Well if you like drinking rocket fuel. You are on the right path. Most of us around here like to make the best possible drink we can. We aren't greedy. Quality over quantity. That will be your biggest hurdle. Until you figure that out. You won't be making the best product you can.

A high ABV turbo yeast ferment. Through a pot still. Sounds like a good recipe for some jet fuel. Not for some good drinking spirits.

If you ever loose the greed factor. And would like to make some good drink. I would be more then welcome to help you. But if your just after making the most crap drink you can. Maybe someone else can help you with that. Because I don't do that. Good luck.

[planethax]

Higher the ABV (generally) to harsher the taste as far as I read.
Sticking with the Tried and True recipes will yield a better tasting product.

[Brendan]

I'd would like to know WHY you consider only 8% to be ideal though. For ME, that translates to WAY too low overall yield per batch than I am willing to be hassled with, considering the amount of time that it takes each batch to "ferm up".

Obviously, the turbo yeast CAN handle 20%, but my big question is: What is the highest ABV that the bird watcher's recipe will handle? If it only goes 12- 14%, it's probably NOT going to cut for me. But IF it will handle 20% without dying out, I'll be ALL-IN on it.

It's all a matter of QUALITY, and is common practise for any decent distiller. When fermenting, you aren't just creating flavourless ethanol...the ethanol carries small FLAVOUR components which relate to the type of sugar it is produced with (ie. grain, molasses, or refined table sugar). Any wash above 10% will start to introduce UNDESIRABLE flavours in the product which will NOT be removed...ie. you'll be making TERRIBLE alcohol.

The higher you go past 10%, the worse it will be. I wouldn't even consider making anything from a 12% wash, but you say a 10%-12% wash won't cut it for you...the bottom line is harsh but simple: you will NOT make anything nice. I have come across many people with a similar way of thinking, where they use turbo yeasts and push abv as high as a yeast can tolerate, and they have NEVER even made something worth smelling

I stick with 8% washes for all my whiskies now, and it's definitely the sweet spot for a decent ferment. If you think having a 10-12% wash is a waste of your time, I would say don't bother at all, as anything higher will taste like rocket fuel, and your time will be wasted regardless.

[bellybuster]

It's SO nice of you to CAPITALISE all the things that you REALLY want us all to read.

I'm SERIOUS

This entire thread completely reeks of someone that needs to do some very basic research, I'm surprised it has gone this far.

[woodshed]

Pretty sure I just caught a whiff of troll. Pushing all the buttons RL?
If this is the direction you want to take your distilling I would expect zero support on this site.

Quality and safety rule here. I assume a different location may be able to help you with production of crap.

[T-Pee]

He obviously doesn't need research when all he wants to do is hold his nose to get drunk.
Good luck with that.

tp

[bellybuster]

P.S. I'd like to go to the auto parts store and pick up a SG hydrometer (couldn't find the one that I used to have). I assume that the type which has the buoyant plastic pointer that pivots on a pin will work.?

trollaliscious baby

[rad14701]

Quality over Quantity...

I think the membership has taken the stance, and made it obvious, to get serious or get lost...